Is Eywa a fungal organism?
 

Something like this, but larger and sentient and non-destructive. Living in symbiosis with the forest and using the abundant superconductor to enhance communication.

Largest organisms - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

While there are fungal plants on Pandora, there are plenty of nonfungal ones as well.

Fungi aren't plants (although they often work extremely closely with them, as is the case with lichens). They're more closely related to animals!

Mkay, "fungal organisms", but Eywa's distributed through the trees as well.

On Earth, fungi 'tsaheylu' with trees. Sometimes many hundreds of trees at once Mycorrhiza - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The trees are the hardware, Eywa's the software.

The trees are her peripheral nervous system. Eywa's brain is probably vast quantities of mycelial (fungal) strands connecting all the trees together.

The brain is the nervous system. Its all neurons continuously sending signals to each other.

The central part of the nervous system, yes. Eywa's trees are like the nerve cells in fingers and eyes and things. The peripheral nervous system. Sensors. They send signals to the main brain.

Aihwa is right. Eywa works in the same way as the human brain, except neurons are replaced with trees and the synapses are the connections between them, plus overall there are more connections.

If you read the survival guide, it says that many plants on Pandora have an animal-like nervous system

Thanks for pointing me towards this thread, ISV

I just listened to some of the talks of Paul Stamets ( Podcast Episode: Living Green: Paul Stamets, Fungal Intelligence and the 21st Psychedelic Journey - "How Mushrooms Can Help Save the World." in our "11th Hour" edition. (EveryBody Inspired to Succeed ) and I have heard some of his previous talks as well, he is also on "TED".

The deal is this - on Earth, funghi are something between plants and animals, more on the animal side. They have vast networks of connected cells underground with mushrooms as "fruit". Their networks resemble neural networks, the structure of the internet and even the structure of railway systems. Mycelia is also mobile, it can literally move towards food, consume it and move on: YouTube - Schleimpilze 1 von 4 (german language, but good pictures) . It has a pulse and chemicals are distributed throughout the network. It senses the presence of animals, reacts to the footsteps of animals by reaching up and some mycelia are bioluminescent: http://www.sfsu.edu/~sfsumag/archive.../pix/final.jpg
To say that these networks are conscious and actually act like neurons is a bit of a stretch, as they have no electrical signal transduction (you can hear Norm and Grace talking about that in respect to Pandora on their first expedition), but Paul Stamet goes that way and he is no new age guy, but a very renowned scientist. Soo - mushrooms could be Earths version of that network that harbors the Eywa-consciousness.

The similarities to Pandora are very interesting indeed. For once, Plants there have often animal properties, so the vegetation there is basically very close in their classification to what mushrooms are on Earth, but maybe leaning more towards the plants than animals. They also form a network, transmit signals and probably nutrients, much like Earths funghi. You can see bioluminescent mycelia-like veins or connections covering the planet at nighttime. You can see fine strands of something that looks like mycelium coming up to cover Grace during the ceremony. The network reacts to touch (by glowing) and in some images it looks like not all roots are participating, but rather some glowing veins cover them.

So I would not say that "Eywa is a mushroom", but that many of the vegetation on Pandora is actually biologically similar to mushrooms on Earth (I think in the Guide they are called zoophytes?). Eywa is a presence, a consciousness that resides within the network set up by these fungal-like organisms like a human consciousness resides in the network of brain cells (or at least expresses itself that way ;) ).

Now what about Earth - can there be a "Gaia"-consciousness here? I dont think it is completely unlikely. Paul Stamet thinks so and the mycelium of all the funghi on Earth are so vast and so complex that it would have the possibility. However as we have no electric signal transduction (maybe Pandora has it because of the Unobtainoum) on Earth, communication would be slower, so if there is a consciousness, it would be a slow thinker - for it, time would run very fast and human civilization would be a stressful matter, as it is happeing very very fast: YouTube - Das Rad (funny video! German with engl. subtitles)

Interestingly, it was discovered, that electric transduction in organisms beyond animals is possible: Electrically conductive bacterial nanowires produced by Shewanella oneidensis strain MR-1 and other microorganisms

So what I think is, that this planets biosphere has the very real potential to at least become a Pandora with a consciousness. Maybe it already is, but maybe it just could become - and this makes me even sadder at the fact that the possibly first try to achieve intelligent consciousness here - human beeings - are about to diminish the chances for such a future.

Greetings, Aurora

Zooplantae actually, but yes.
There are certainly fungi on Pandora (remember that giant mushroom that Jake lands on? :P ) and those are going to be part of Eywa like all the other plant species are... But in a way, I suppose the overall structure could be seen as very similar, it's just that fungi on Earth don't have the size or biological sophistication for consciousness.

I think that a 'Gaia' is possible, but doesn't actually exist (on Earth, anyway)0. After all, as far as I understand the idea, it works in a very similar way.

As for the method of signal transduction, I don't think it is unobtainium as there is already a method of transferring electrical signals via neurons - I'd guess that the roots simply include similar structures and act as synapses.

Well - funghi on Earth are massive. Listen to some stuff from Stamets. It is amazing. There are tons and tons of biomass that is only funghi mycelium in healthy forests. It literally is what keeps it all together. Go into a forest and dig a small hole and you will find mycelium all over the place. The beauty of it is that it does not require whole trees as cells and roots as synapses, but is a rather dense network already. It has as many connections and nodes in a cube meter than a forest has trees. The biological sophistication - yes, that is a problem. The network is there, but signal transduction not so much and of course a network does not mean consciousness per se. It merely proves the basis for it.

Personally I believe, that there is a Gaia at least in the classical sense of Lovelock, who defined it as a system of regulatory circles keeping the state of the world in balance and repairing damage. This world would not exist if life itself would not have shaped it to have air with O2 and N2 and a little CO2 in it. The idea of a conscious Gaia is quite debateable of course and is more philosophical.

On signal transduction. The thing is that neurons work a different way than funghi or plant fibres. Neurons work with electric potential, which is quite fast, while the others seem to work chemically, beeing rather slow. A "brain" that is distributed over lets say some acres would not only require to be faster than what funghi seem to be able to provide, but even would have to be faster than regular neurons. At least if the processing speed shall be as fast as what our timescale demands. A signal from your foot takes some splitseconds to reach your brain - if that brain is half a mile away and the memory center of the brain is another mile away and so on - this would make Eywa or Gaia a very slow mind, thinking more in geological timescales. That is, why I think electric signal transduction maybe with metals or superconductors would benefit such a concept greatly.

Superconductors wouldn't actually speed up the rate of conduction compared to one based on a biologically generated electrical potential, they would only reduce the resistance (which would actually have an effect primarily by permitting longer runs of a single connection).

How did I not find this thread sooner?

Yeah, "Eywa" isn't a fungus, it's a network of plants that have somehow evolved something structurally and physiologically similar to nervous systems in animals. While fungi do belong in kingdom animalia, they do not have true nervous systems; they only mimic them structurally.

Some of the plants on Pandora actually look a little bit like Cnidarians (jellyfish, sea anenomes, coral, and hydrae). Especially the woodsprites, which are based more or less on these:

http://www.conncoll.edu/ccacad/zimme...s/Aequorea.jpg

As for the unobtainium, I doubt it works with the planetary intelligence as well, since the geology had to have been around before the biology. I suppose it could learn to use it somehow to help itself, but that all depends on how smart it really is.

Yes, HNM, the advantage of superconductors would not be a massive advantage over metal conductivity unless large distances would have to be covered, which would however be the case in a vast neuronetworks as on Pandora. More evidence would be, that hometree with its nearby tree of voices is right on top of a huge superconductor deposit and the Tree of Souls is in the midst of a big chunk of superconductor at the centre of the flux.

However, metal signal transduction (superconductor or not) is faster than chemical potential in animals. In animals, signal transduction is measured in m/s, in communications technology using copper wires, the speed is of magnitudes faster. This is also because a signal in biology has only a limited reach and needs to be transmitted through a chain of cells.

Interestingly, plants and funghi have the ability to transduct signals similarly, though the mechanism is even slower ( Action potential - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ScienceDirect - Biochimica et Biophysica Acta (BBA) - Biomembranes : “Action potentials” in NEUROSPORA CRASSA, a mycelial fungus )

Well - the grouping is not so. The distinction on Earth is plants from Opisthokonts, the latter is divides into funghi and animals. So funghi are not animals. I propose, on Pandora the distinction is different, with zooplantae taking the place of funghi in that respect, that they are "between" plants and animals. plants and funghi do have networks that are transmitting information. Of course these are on Earth NOT neurons or neurological networks the same way they are in animals. They do react however on signals and input, albeit much slower than animals. More like a mimosae (plant) that folds its leafs when one touches it. If the networks formed by funghi are able to functionally mimic neural networks is as of yet more a fantastic theory by Stamet than scientific fact, though Stamet is not a loony. He invented and researched many applications of funghi. If he thinks it is possible, I would not rule it out. But again - even if it is true, then processing is not as fast as in animals andyou will not be able to tsaheylu with a mushroom (though some people claim that eating some mushrooms gives them a similar feeling ;) :D )

Paul Stamets has seen Avatar! Here are his thoughts:

This article is also worth a read:

Garden Rant: Does James Cameron garden?

Ha, great! - Where is that quote from? I love Stamets ideas since I have seen him on TED some time ago (I think it was in 2009?). Really inspiring.

I know he believes in the data processing capabilities of mycelium to a high degree, obviously beyond sensing to fallen tree branches. As you have read his book already, does he make good points towards that claim? Is it a sound scientific theory or is it merely a hypothesis of Stamets that it may be so?

The quote is one of Stamets' replies to a question posted underneath his TED talk video.

Do I think such a thing might be true? No. I kind of want to, it's a beautiful idea, but you know how the saying goes, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. And the evidence isn't quite extraordinary enough at the moment.

Yeah -sadly that is true. Actually the evidence is not even below extraordinary, I guess. Did Stamet elaborate on the concept in some talk or in his book (the TED talk you mentioned is probably the one on "saving the world with mushrooms"´, right?) - I mean does he have ANY evidence for this claim or is it just a concept. He is a scientist after all, so making unsubstantiated claims is not exactly something one can easily afford. After all, even the at that time funny notion that contients are moving was at least supported by the matching shape of africa and south america and the presence of identical rock formations along that shape. Of course that theory was first laughed at and now is accepted - my point is though, that to make such a claim, Wegner at least had some evidence that pointed strongly towards it. The structural likeness of mycelium to neural networks alone is not really that much, as such "webs" are present in other nonsentient (at least at the current state of knowledge ;) ) organisms and even inorganic structures as well.

It's a human tendency to see patters where often none exist. One of the human brain's strongest abilities is pattern recognition (look at human attempts at calculations and attempts to develop pattern recognition in computers, they are the opposite), but that doesn't mean everything is part of one.

No . Eywa does not work like the human brain, and there is nowhere in the film where anyone says this. Eywa displays abilities which appear supernatural, such as foreknowledge of the future (for example in the way she chose Jake). Although Eywa has a physical component, she also has a spiritual component. In an Interview James Cameron described Eywa as an "encompassing Spirit"

I seem to remember Grace saying exactly that. Or at least, using the human brain as a useful anology. Sure, there is another component to her (or more, given I subscribe to the idea that Eywa also functions as a bit of a hive-mind), but the anology of the human brain is still used.

I am well aware of what Grace said, but that does not imply that that Eywa functions as a human mind. Eywa seems to operate on an infinitely higher level.

That's not knowledge of the future, or a group of angtsik would have killed Quaritch the moment he landed on Pandora.
It's intelligence, but not anything special.

It's a bit like that in the scriptment, I guess.


What does everyone make of this as an analogy:

Eywa: superorganism.
Humans: invading pathogen.
Jake Sully/Grace Augustine: antigen.

Brain =/= mind. Brain is the physical organ that can be scanned - mind is what we CAN'T see, and what is US. Of course Eywa operates on a different level - she's a planet-wide consciousness, not a member of a species. But using a brain is still a useful anology, I think, to understanding. It's a 'brain' made up trees and the connections between them - which I have no problem in believing would be a Pandoran version of fungus. That's the hardware, if you will.

Mind you that Grace is a scientist. She is focussed on the tangible physical structure and that is the "brain", the connected trees, the neuron-like connections. For once, that may not even be everything there is to it. They were just starting to learn after all! And secondly to know the basic structure of the "brain" does not mean to know how it works. Like people used to think that 90% of the human brain is not used. That turned out to be nonsense...
I can imagine, that the "brain" of Eywa is not simply trees and roots on a macroscopic scale. I could not find a screenshot that showed that readout on graces screen when Norm said "its that fast" after poking a needle in a root. (Maybe someone has one?), but what showed up there was not like one big line of light per root - it was more like something in the roots or covering the roots. (like in this here: http://oneknightstands.files.wordpre...r-hd-00071.jpg) . Also the night pictures, they semed to show a glowing web that did not follow the visible roots, which actually were dark at times but crossed the landscape. So I can imagine, that Grace and her buddies did not (yet) see everything that happens, just imagine a world like Pandora - it would take decades to just grasp the basics of the ecology. We dont even understand the ecology of Earth yet and spent years of work and hordes of scientists on it ;)

There's nowhere it says that.
Grace describes the structure very well, and there was no demonstrable knowledge of the future - or otherwise, why not prevent the destruction of Hometree and the tree of voices? or even the RDA's arrival on Pandora? Why not just blow up the ISVs if Eywa really is some kind of mystical superbeing as you seem to think?

WTF? - Why is my post ("Yesterday, 12:02 PM ") showing up above HNM's ("Yesterday, 11:43 PM ")?

Because 12PM is the first hour of the afternoon, 11PM is the last, then it goes to 12am (0AM in 24 hour) :P

Ah ok, makes sense. I just thought I had a deja vu, because you posted basically the same statement as before (http://www.tree-of-souls.com/97857-post25.html) in http://www.tree-of-souls.com/98117-post29.html - so I though "man, I just read that before I wrote that reply" :D

Anyways - I still hope someone has a nice screenshot of that screen readout when Grace shows Norm the signal transduction. And on Eywa beeing supernatural - I think there ARE some hints for that in some way. Like the "signs" with the woodsprites... How would Eywa send a sign if she did not see something coming, how did she "control" the woodsprites to act like they did. Also the (sadly cut) scene of Jake seeing Toruk as his spirit animal that came to him without direct contact is a bit mystical. Still - there may be explanations without supernatural for this, though I think I remember reading a comment of JC that he intended to give the impression of a supernatural Eywa and not merely a physical entity... but I cant find it, so I cant prove it.

http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/9...3015h49m25.png
There :)

As for supernatural... I do disagree, with the atokirina, I had an interesting theory a while ago about their senses and how they may be 'programmed' in a way as to what they are attracted to. For Toruk, I'm no expert on that kind of thing, but isn't it supposed to reflect the person's personality, rather than any future events?

Yeah - the case for supernatural is not really a clean one :)

But on the roots. Thanks for the image. I think one can see, that some parts of the roots are dark, while others have lines along them that light up. This looks a bit like this:
http://education.nachi.org/images/up..._mycellium.jpg or this: http://www.caf.wvu.edu/kearneysville...s/APARMELL.JPG. So I dont want to debate too much here, as this is a bit loony to debate on these details on a fictional representation of a world, but to me it sure looks a bit like the roots are more covered in something that transmits the signals. Maybe Eywa is more at home in a symbiotic lifeform that grows along the roots of the trees or maybe the trees themselves as zooplantae have that ability to grow these structures on the roots - but it seems a bit (center bottom of the screen) like not the whole root is the conductor, but something that exists on its surface.
But from one screenshot, it's hard to say. Guess I need to go to the theatre again or get the DVD after all... ;)

I think it's clearer with the animation that it shows the signal actually moving along... as it's a scan that scans 'through' them, it's showing the centre of the roots where the actual nerve-like fibres are, rather than the outside which is more to protect them.

Ok, ok - well in any case - I think the comparison of zooplantae to funghi in respect to them beeing both neither completly plant nor animal is still a good point and a network of zooplantae would in some way be the Pandora equivalent of a mycelium network on Earth. Of course we dont know enough about what the Biology on Pandora is like to know this. In some ways, the trees and plants (we dont even know which trees and plants participate in that network - sigh) on Pandora seem to connect in a way that on Earth is not seen, while on Earth we can see that connection in funghi that connect large areas and even link trees together. So I think there is a similarity, but because you cant compare apples and purple fruits on a distant moon (or biology and exobiology), quite obviously there cant be a "this is that" comparison, just a homologous development or similarity in any case...

Fungi can be considered concious...
 

"To say that these networks are conscious and actually act like neurons is a bit of a stretch, as they have no electrical signal transduction..."

The key to having a functional organism whether it be single celled or multicellular is intercellular communication. Cells have numerous communication pathways through which they send messages to one another. Neurons are simply, specialized cells that send direct messages which can direct movement of muscular tissues, or other desired bodily effects.

What makes a 'being' concious is all of the connections neurons make in the brain. Infact, the ability of neurons to store information comes from their capacity to forge many connections between one another-like a network. Fungal cells form many miles in length with numerous connections. It is quite possible and most likely probable that fungi not only communicate, but store information through biochemical means. True, this isn't the same communication method as neurons, but that dosnt mean they don't create a sort of conciousness.

Communication and sentience (or indeed, even conscious thought) aren't interdependent, so it's certainly possible :)

"The quote is one of Stamets' replies to a question posted underneath his TED talk video.
Do I think such a thing might be true? No. I kind of want to, it's a beautiful idea, but you know how the saying goes, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. And the evidence isn't quite extraordinary enough at the moment."

Biologically, one of the criteria for being a living thing is the ability to respond to stimuli or shifting abiotic factors in the environment. If a structure like a branch (which also becomes the mycelium's food) falls above the organism it will have some means of 'sensing' it.

It has been proven scientifically that fungi coevolved with plants and form a symbiosis which without, many plants could not live.

Through experimentation it has been shown that plants with fungal symbionts grow larger and faster. These plants are drought resistant as well as defended from dangerous pathogens.

Within a foot step, enough mycelium hyphae is coild up to form a length of eight miles when stretched out.

It has been shown that mycelium connect multiple trees belonging to different species and that when one tree is severely lacking in nutrients, the mycelium will reroute nutrients toward that particular tree.

Stamets has also shown that mycelium can purify water by acting as a filter, they produce chemicals which can destroy biological weapons, and they produce powerful antibacterial agents.

He has studied these organisms for 30 years. In his book- 'Mycelium Running: How Mushrooms Can Help Save the World' he explains the experiments he and others have done. He provides pictures, explaining his ideas. Stamets even gives a list of references at the end of this book. He is the foremost authority on fungi.

"Neurons work with electric potential, which is quite fast, while the others seem to work chemically, beeing rather slow."

The pathways through which neurons communicate (bio-electrically) are chemically induced and are bio-chemical in nature. If you have many groups of connections then speed dosnt necessarily matter because there are alterior routes for the signal to move through. Being intelligent and concious is about the CONNECTIONS these cells make.