Why Cameron Failed.
 

Reposting this.

People were rooting for the RDA. Not everyone, but many. If Cameron meant this story as more than entertainment (and he clearly did), if he meant to change people's minds with this, then he screwed up. What looks evil to a liberal looks justifiable, even honorable, to a conservative. And with the scene in SE showing that the attack on Hometree was provoked, well...civilian targets have been bombed before, and the casualties accepted as a cost of war.

Now to anyone who was following the Na'vi, sympathizing with the Na'vi, the loss of Hometree is felt as a holocaust, a horror. But to boys who idolized Quaritch, loved all the cool hardware, and felt bored (and maybe grossed out) by this "unity of people and nature" thing, it was a victorious battle.

James, you failed. You should have made Quaritch, Selfridge, and the RDA more of a clear villain if you wanted to convert people. You should have screen-tested this movie to conservatives, and tweaked it until they agreed that the RDA was in the wrong. You should have shown the true horrors that empires inflict on the innocent. Slavery and rape, even macho hardasses understand that these are wrong.

.............

Adding things like slavery and rape would have made the movie rated R which then the movie wouldn't have been able to reach a broader audience.

I don't think for a second that James Cameron failed.

Well if all that content would've been shown... Avatar age limit increased lot?

Not that I have absolutely any problem with gore/violence in movies... but IMO, it suits only for certain types of films. And Avatar, an epic story... well, for me... it wouldn't fit. Wouldn't be the same tbh :S :cool:

Edit: Agrees :)

Also, the main message JC was looking for with Avatar was obviously the environmental destruction and disrespect we have on our planet. THAT, he definitely succeeded with :)

Avatar wouldn't have been such a huge box office success if Cameron failed to have audiences grow hatred towards the humans near the end of the movie.

Do you know why some people fell into depression? Because Avatar showed how much of a perfect life the Na'vi have, and just how terrible humans treat the environment and each other.

I remember a time where I was sitting in the theater, and right as Quaritch was shot in the chest with Neytiri's arrow, the audience cheered and clapped. That says something, doesn't it?

I for one applaud Cameron for not making the movie so black and white. To everything, there is more to learn and another side. I highly sympathized with the Navi but saw the common grunt within the RDA as misguided, not evil. They were doing what their superiors told them. It adds to the intricacy of the story rather than detracting from it. If anything it is more reflective of what goes on in the real world. Evil does not usually come out in the open, it hides behind false justification. Some outside force is not going to stop us, we have to overcome ourselves.

Plus if you watch the extended version, Selfridge isn't as bad as we think he is. Quaritch was the main villian in Avatar.

One of the big criticisms of the movie was actually it being too black and white. I found that acceptable considering it was a sci-fi movie. Sci-Fi's often have extreme contrasts, which is done on purpose to make a point on where society is heading. And I don't think its fair to say Conservatives enjoyed the horrific parts of the movie. But that beats me, I'm fairly liberal.

If he failed, then why are we here?

Art is subjective, the message depends on who watches it -in spite of what the author meant. Even if JC wanted it to look like an "interruption of free trade" tale, we still hold the meaning we give to the movie true.

i tended to be pretty dang conversative on most fiscal and social issues before seeing this movie, and after it, I am definitely libertarian and liberal on social issues now.....soo in that regard Cameron definitely succeeded! :P

Those people who suposably were fans who like Quaratch were just people who don't see. I Like the military hardware, but I put peoples lives infront of that. I wouldn't kill a person unless they have murderous intaions.

Camron didn't fail. He created an arsonal of kick butt military hardware, but the morjority of the fans on the internet like to learn about the Na'vi, not Human Technogy.

I'm in a liberal family and this movie strangthens my liberal feelings. So Camron was Secessful. The Box office and the fan sites say so too.

I don't think he failed. Most people saw it to be entertained and it succeeded because we have a conversation going about all the themes in the movie and what the messages are. In fact, some of the messages in Avatar, like with any book or movie, may not be what the original writer/director, etc intended. Many people dismissed Avatar for being too simplistic and black/white which we know isn't true. I don't think that Cameron or anyone else can expect people to change over night but if it brings up thought provoking issues that people can actually talk about then he did his job.

I am a conservative on social issues and liberal on some political issues but after seeing Avatar, it got me thinking and pondering about various issues related to the environment, etc. Good art should make one think and allow for conversation. I feel that the "conservative" response was sad. They readily dismissed it without truly watching it. I think it could be due to some of the cringe worthy lines. I love Avatar but there are a few clunky lines that can take someone out of the movie and into the current political situation. That may be why some people were upset and dismissive of the movie.

.....Wow. I'll have to remember that trying to show people as complicated and not cardboard cut-outs means I fail as a writer. /sarcasm

I disagree with EVERYTHING here. I think the horror of Hometree was clearly there, even if the RDA's actions were understandable to a point (psychology goes off in circumstances like Pandora; the RDA had clearly been holding back from taking violent action against the Na'vi in most cases). How could it not have been? And yes, I think Quaritch is awesome. He's a fascinating character and just pure badass.

That doesn't change the fact that he ordered the destruction of a village. And frankly, I'd prefer it if more writers would remember the fact that their audiences aren't stupid, that showing complexity is good, that things aren't black-and-white. Most soldiers are not bad people - they are just PEOPLE who HAVE to obey orders and who, yes, sometimes do bad things. Showing them to be EVIL would have...well, if Cameron had done that, I probably would have walked out of the movie in disgust. I've read too much of what goes on in war and the psychology of it all.

If anything, I would have preferred it if Cameron showed MORE complexity of character; Avatar is far more black-and-white than I prefer my movies.

And also, I have to ask - having the freedom to choose which characters to like and which to not is...bad? Being treated like I have the maturity and awareness to go 'yes, Quaritch was an *ss and he did awful things that make me flail, but DAMN did he pull it off with badass' is...bad? The writer failed?

Yeah, I really disagree with you.

This is completely false.

You assuming that he set out to do things that he didn't actually set out to do and assuming some pretty awful things about "conservatives" (talk about generalizing!).

And do you really think it would have been a good idea to make every "evil" character completely horrific to the point where they lose their humanity? No. Not from a movie point of view, not from a story point of view, etc. It's almost like you're saying that Cameron failed because he didn't slap anyone who disagreed with him across the face hard enough for them to finally agree with him. As if that's going to "convert" them anyway?

This is nonsense. JC set out to tell a story and let people draw parallels however they saw fit. He succeed.

That's it! The proof is hear, we see issues it addresses and we disscus them. I was suprised to see this site with very disscusive topics on morals. I mean, alot of us hear now have a resentment ageinst greedy corporations.

I'm a liberal, but I try to see it from both sides some times but most of the time I just dissagree with the Conservitive reasons. It just doesn't seem reasonable to me. And that part about how conservatists dismiss avatar off the bat when they hear about it, that is just sad. I have a friend who's partents were hard core conservatisis and with out even seeing the movie, they don't allow him to see it:angry:. It's so sad to learn that there are some people who are completely ignorient to everything but there own belief.

- We're here. As Zenit said, that says something...

- There's thousands of others out there that See, but are not on the forums, or only posted once back in the hay-day of PAD.

- Activist groups/people fighting oppression all over the world have taken up the image of Avatar and the Na'vi to symbolize their own struggles.

- James Cameron is now one of the major faces of environmentalism and indigenous rights.

Cameron didn't fail. He succeeded, quite epicly I might add. :D

As for conservatism, yeah, the backlash is pretty ridiculous, but that's corporate-sponsored neo-conservatism for you. I'm sure old-school Eisenhower-conservatives wouldn't have reacted that way. In fact, I'm sure the message would have resonated with many of them (rapunzel77 is a perfect example :)). Basically what the right-wing has become is a mass of corporatists and luddites who can't fathom that middle-aged white men don't rule the world anymore. So they see something like Avatar that embodies everything they hate, and for lack of a better term, it makes them have a hissy-fit. There's plenty of other, more reasonable (though less vocal) conservatives out there.

Exactly. This is what good art does. It helps to wake us up at least to the point that we are talking to each other. We see it so often in the media and general culture, very few people with opposite views actually talking to each other. Instead there is too much bickering and hate.

I understand where you are coming from but also keep in mind that very few people can be bunched up into liberal or conservative groups. I am a mixture of both. On some moral issues I cannot waver in my conservative position. On everything else, I am more liberal. I have always loved the environment before Avatar but what it did do was awaken in me to have a greater concern for it as well as learning to listen to others. Before Avatar I was listening to more conservative groups but when I saw what their reaction was to the movie, I stopped listening to them because I was disgusted by their reaction. They took it personally when there is very little if any indication in the movie that it was aimed at them at all.

This is very sad. I grew up in a conservative home and most of my friends irl are also conservative and it irks me sometimes to see some of the knee jerk reactions. It makes us look bad, especially those of us who are also very religiously devout. I enjoyed Avatar and I took from it some very important lessons. Some lessons that perhaps Cameron didn't anticipate. People will read into any work of art weather it is a movie, play, book, painting, sculpture, music, etc anything that they wish to read. Some will only see hate and evil and others will only see love and joy. Very few people will see the more profound messages that can be drawn. Sure, some will only see simplicity and scoff at that but sometimes it is the simplest of stories that we need to hear most.

Actually Cameron did fail in one respect (and I've mentioned this before). He made the RDA and the security forces, indeed, all the humans on Pandora, far too American. The RDA is supposed to be a multi-national super-corporation, but all we see are people who look, talk and act like Americans. There should have been people with French, German, English and Russian accents. Obvious Japanese and Chinese and Indian people (Max looks Indian, but he still talks like an American).

Why is this important? Well, I personally know quite a few people who adamantly refuse to watch Avatar because they've heard it is anti-American and anti-US Military. It's not, but it could easily seem that way. One of the early trailers even makes it seem like the RDA security forces are US Marines and some of my veteran friends will not watch a movie where US troops get masacred. So, by doing it the way he did (and it would have cost nothing at all to add some obvious non-Americans) Cameron lost a lot of people who might well have loved Avatar as much as we do.

There is that, and there is also the fact that some of us here in the international audience are getting pretty sick of the future = Americans. It would have been far more powerful (and gotten the whole 'international company thing across) to have some non-Americans there. Given the blonde woman in the control tower a Russian accent; Wainfleet British; some of the Avatars and scientists different accents. Anything. Something. And it would have been far more imaginative than just 'the future is the US'

Thats not the U.S. out there, Thats a private sercurty force for a Corparation and they were hiered to do their dirty work. As I recall, The U.S. has learned from it's mistake of removing indains in the 19th century. There are contries out there who do more treable things than the U.S. Now a days we try diplomicy, diplomicy, diplomicy.

Diplomacy with the edge of 'if you do not do as we say, we will ruin your county' - OH so easy to do now that there is the 'War on Terror'. Previously, the excuse was the Cold War, which gave way to not only invasions but also coups and assassinations. *shrugs*

But the fact of the matter is that an organized made up entirely of Americans reads as 'metaphor for US'. Might not be US government (not exactly, but given how much pressure companies can put on the government...), but US companies who go in and take what they want with military backing?

Yep. At least to this Australian, the RDA still read as 'America' in a lot of ways.

...You also have, off-hand, Cuba, Puerto Rico, the Philippines, Nicaragua, Honduras, Iran, Guatemala, South Vietnam, Chile, Grenada, Panama, and that's before you mention Afghanistan, and Iraq. A lot of those countries aren't doing THAT well. *shrugs* It's an empire thing, it just doesn't get mentioned a lot, which is understandable, as empires tend to be a little shifty over what they actually do.

But that's partly my point (and really, I don't particularly want to get into the history of US foreign policy - it depresses me, and is mostly OT) - by making all the characters American, the movie can so easily read to those NOT in the US that this is just more of the same. So, yeah, the movie has anti-American sentiments, which could have been nicely avoided if Cameron had cast put more of an international cast in the movie.

Exactly. Like I said once before, if a government went to Pandora, and not a profit-seeking corporation, things would not have gone the way they did. It would've been a mission of diplomacy, not greed.

Though too, in all honestly, the recent Wikileaks dump has shown us that the world still has a lot of work to do on diplomacy. We need to learn to coexist on this planet before we drag someone from another planet into this.

And I'm not sure we're seeing America in Avatar. More than likely we're seeing the end result of 150 years of this...

He could've just forgot.... lol? :P

Haven't notice it until you all mentioned it. I guess it will stay to be one of those things we'll probably never get to know about JC. *continues with life* :P

this thread is a FAIL because of 1 simple fact, James Cameron never fails

Damn it TM20. I was going to say that, I shall say it anyway.

This thread is a fail. Just because the film failed to reach a few people, it didn't stop it becoming the highest grossing movie of all time. Kthxbai. <3

this thread was...







sorry it had to be done

There are always a few people who lack empathy, who lack an understanding of the message. It's the same as the realistic if depressing statistic that half of the population is below average.
The people who didn't get Avatar's message are the ones who have been opposing that message for decades already.
There are still VERY few people who actually do support the RDA, and with a couple of very obvious exceptions, most of them don't like Avatar at all anyway.
I agree that it would arguably have been better if the skypeople had been worse (and if they hadn't all escaped at the end... :angry: ), but there's certainly no vagueness. The people who support the RDA are the same people who have been opposing attempts to change the world for the last few decades in favour of short term profiting.

Very well said :)
I completely agree. Some people are just too entrenched in old ways and oppose everything out of principle with little or no understanding any more.

What, based on the ~5 RDA characters with lines? (and Trudy seems to be at least partly South American). Not to mention Jake's Australian-ish accent (although easily fixed in background as being half-Australian or whatever)

America is not even MENTIONED (well, Selfridge does have a miniature American flag on the shelves in his office but I doubt most people even noticed that) and they are by no means he only country to be 'RDA-ish'.

Also agreed, this thread fails epically :P

The only reason why Jake sounds a little Australian is because Sam Worthington is not good at masking his accent. Did you see him in Black Ops? It was terrible.

As for the movie, and I'm including all deleted scenes, it was a success. Cameron created a believable world in which people were people, not one in which humans are scene as evil. Humans are just on the wrong side of the fight in Avatar. I wouldn't call ever Nazi soldier evil, but I would say they were fighting for the wrong side. A movie in which humans are seen is evil would give "conservatives" ammo against it.

You couldn't make Quarich more "dastardly" if you gave him mustachio's and a canine sidekick.

I was going to write a paragraph on the terrable things about King leopold and the congo (He was Dutch, not american) but I think there are enought people here to prove this thread wrong. I deal with people like this on Battle.net all the time, me and my friend Will call them "Fail haters." - a person who doesn't have good reasons to hating something.

Battle.net is nothing now. The OT migrated away. The OT was the best gathering of trolls on Blizzard sites. Ever. Of all time.

I've actually seen critics who say the villains are TOO black-and-white. If anything, a more sympathetic view of the RDA would have worked better. Make it a fight not just between humans and aliens, but between human "progress" and Na'vi society a-la the situation with Native Americans in the 1800s. Or, even arguably today where our ever-expanding desire for "stuff" is using resources at an unsustainable rate.

I think that Cameron did a pretty good job of interpreting an 'evil' military. After all, Humans have got a hell of a lot of experience in warfare.

Events in Avatar could have easily been borrowed from real life events, so to give off that same feeling in the movie like in real warfare.

Example: The Hometree's Destruction = The 1940 Blitz.