Absolutely. When you hear of babies being delivered at 21-24 weeks surviving, it does make you think! Babies don't just "appear" at nine months, after all, so where do you draw the line? I, personally (and perhaps despite being non-religious! ;)), have a very hard time simply accepting anybody's definition of "the beginning," as goes human life, which is why I'm so on-the-fence about this issue. On the one hand, I accept that there may be situations where abortion is the Right Thing. On the other hand, I admit: It's difficult for me to abstractly describe what those situations are.

Rape is obviously terrible, but is also added here mainly as a polarizing factor, as if being in any way anti-abortion is somehow being pro-rape. Clearly that is not the case! :shock: It's important, I think, to strive to separate the reason the baby (or fetus, or whatever) is there from what to do about it. You really do have to separate the thinking there, or else you are being morally corrupted by your emotions. My opinion. ;)

*smh*

There isn’t some big conspiracy on the pro-life side to simply limit women’s rights. I’m all for expanding women’s rights; however, I think that rights have limitations especially when they infringe upon the rights of other groups (in this case the unborn). Please don't paint us as somehow being pro-rape or anti-woman. Using such ad hominems is an excuse to avoid rational debate about the actual issue.

Canada is out too. Their conservative party is going even beyond ours in terms of asshattery. They're screening attendees to political conferences. Australia is the best place for young professionals to head for. Inflation's pretty bad, hole in the ozone layer, but their economy is relatively stable otherwise, and their conservatives are just concerned over size A breasts and blood in video games. I can live with that. I cant live under biblical law.

But they aren't using them. Their response is "Because God made it happen for a reason" This is a cancer within the Republican party that has almost completely taken over. The past two years they have gone from conservatives, to full on regressive, theocratic regressives. Worse still, it shows no signs of stopping. So, since they can magically make voters come out of the woodwork to support their agendas during voting season (who all dissapear under rocks somewhere in the midwest afterwords) Then they can keep whats becoming a running joke of a country and I'll go somewhere else. Everybody wins. Except the women, minorities, and homosexuals who can't get out of course. Kinda sucks to be them, but nothing else I can do for them really.

I wasn't talking about "them" I was talking about the actual issue divorced from all of the politically charged language.

It sounded like not supporting abortion was equivalent to being a "right wing religious nut-job" or whatever and I wanted to point out that this isn't always the case. Sure it is sometimes, but generalizations like that make me uncomfortable to say the least. And on the other side, those who support abortion are not necessarily the murderous, amoral, irreverent people that they can be made out to be, though of course you'd agree with that :)

Basically it seemed like a really black and white issue (thanks to this politically charged language, which almost forces you to "pick a side") and I think it's a lot more gray than either side would care to admit.

Abortion comes down to this in the end. Who are you going to tell to go **** themselves, the woman, or the fetus? No middle ground. Unless you're a guy and you don't care either way (or a woman and fixed). That works too.

As soon as the sperm fertilizes the egg and cellular division begins that’s when new life exists.

If you allow women to get an abortion purely because they say they’ve been raped then that would become the new avenue they would take to get rid of a “mistake” if a regular abortion is no longer an option. Abortions cannot be seen as the ultimate form of birth control.

I got my first girlfriend pregnant and because I couldn’t buy her a very expensive ring she left me and had an abortion. That was a bit unfair to me wouldn’t you say? I should be a father right now with a six year old son or daughter and I think about that everyday. I have to live with the fact that my ex-girlfriend ended the life of my child purely based on the fact that I could not afford a clear rock mounted on a piece of metal. Allowing women to just go right in and have an abortion is wrong because it can be done for the wrong reasons. I am one of the men who does care and I was very excited about being a father, but that was ripped away from me in a moment of pure evil and greed.

So what would you tell all of the people who disagree with you on philosophical grounds, plenty of whom I'm sure are smarter than any of us? "I know this is your field, but you should just trust me on this one. Take it from me, everything you and your buddies have been thinking is wrong. I promise"

As if they'd just roll over and die. I don't think you're in any position to declare this debate "solved" in your favor. Having an opinion is one thing, but suggesting that everyone who disagrees with you is automatically stupid or definitively "wrong" (as if it were some math problem with a right answer) is quite different. This works from both sides and is exactly why politics is so polarized.

So there aren't any fertile women who are pro-life? You sir are greatly mistaken and its not just a small number either.

If thats not enough then consider this: In the original case of Roe vs Wade that resulted in the legalization of abortion in the U.S., Jane Roe the very woman whose case it was, is now pro-life herself. In fact she heads an organization dedicated to the pro-life side and to reverse what happened during her case. She even wrote a book about her regret of what happened in the past.

I think you missed what I said...


I said that if you are pro life, you're siding with the fetus, pro choice, the mother. There is no middle ground here, either its legal to have an abortion, or its not. Or, you could not care either way (aka: A guy, or a woman who will never have the option)

Perhaps I did misunderstand, sorry if I did.


But I thought I would post this: Norma McCorvey Biography aka Jane Roe
Most people don't actually know what really happened in Roe vs Wade.

And here is Roe's own personal website.

[QUOTE=Woodsprite;138857]Do you know what it's like to actually be able to feel the small baby scrambling and writhing inside you while it's slowly cut up into pieces at only weeks old? or experiencing the trauma afterward, of watching the pieces being sucked out of you?QUOTE]

But at a few weeks old, would it actually feel anything? It takes longer than a few weeks for it to grow a brain, heart, etc., no? Also, isn't the mother sedated...? And I thought the doctors just cut the umbilical cord. Why would they cut the fetus up?

I'm sorry, I'm still in school and I haven't learned about this sort of stuff yet.

I'm not sure what to think about this. Indeed, I feel it's a natural right for a women have full control of her life, and yet, it's still a living being. *sigh* I'm torn, but I'm leading towards no. If the doctors are absolutely sure that a fetus can feel pain at 20 weeks, I say hell no to abortion at that time because to do that is completely f***ed up.

Australia is if anything worse, their censorship laws make them the China or Iran of the western world.
Honestly though, every country has political idiots.

It's not that bad... Besides, as far as happiness goes, there are no happier (and as a whole, well off) people than Aussies. Low poverty, no ****ing winter. No Republicans. Win win win win win.