Patriotism, Division, and Countries
 

I feel like the argument for patriotism is a strong sense or belief in the values of a certain nation. As in, "I'm proud to be an American because I believe in freedom and equality!" I hear that stuff all the time. It gets annoying fast.

I've thought this a number of times too, and I think caveman expressed the main reason people feel pride (that and maybe a country's history).

But seeing as how people don't get to chose where they're born, and most have nothing to do with establishing the values of a certain country, I think in most cases it doesn't make much sense and can end up being dangerous.

I remember someone saying that being proud of a country was like being proud of being a certain height (or something like that... it was some comedian... I think.....)

^ It was George Carlin, I believe.







National pride holds no value to me, either. We're all just players on the genetic craps-game that is birth. The only reason you are where you are is because you just happened to be in that location when you popped out.

Here's what I think of my fellow Americans who always spout about "American exceptionalism." Look, you're not special. If we're so special, why are 1 in 6 of us going hungry, the wealth gap growing, our entire social system being torn apart, and our environment being raped and pillaged? Does that sound like the work of a so called "exceptional" country?

At best chauvanists are members of a lucky-sperm club in your own cerebral delusions.

What needs to happen is for us to stop thinking of ourselves as separate groups but as one.

I like Alan's avatar a lot as it reminds me:

http://www.tree-of-souls.com/customa...vatar361_1.gif


We need to stop classifying other people as "coming from across the border" or "the enemy," "one of them" or "one of those people." Instead without question, we need to starting thinking of everyone as "one of us."

I agree. One thing that can arise out of an "us vs them" mentality is the dehumanization of those that we conceive as being part of a different group. When someone dehumanizes someone else in their own mind, it becomes easier to treat that person as subhuman. Examples of this are things like the concentration camps in Nazi Germany and the Abu Ghraib situation during the second war in Iraq a few years back.

Other than that, I never really understood the whole "our country is the greatest" mindset. What is "greatest"? How does one measure such a thing?

There's certainly no sense in putting down another person just because he or she happens to be a [insert national identity here]. Or assuming that you're better by comparison.

To paraphrase what one man once said:


Okay, let me type something a little longer here. At first I was gonna say that I totally agree with you (Mune) and that I see no reason to be proud of something you can't control, like your sex or ethnicity. It's just who you are, that's it, and you should be proud of the things that you choose to be and do.

But then, I started thinking of some past figures whom I am associated with because I happen to be an American, and I thought "Do I not feel proud, glad, or happy to be in the same group as him and/or her?" I then thought to write that everyone should be allowed to celebrate outstanding people and achievements from their own country and feel a proud connection unique to them. (At the same time, I was going to say that some measures should be taken to not get excessively boastful about one's country; for every positive person I can think of from country x I can think of a negative one too.)

But then I read Baneful's post (and saw Alan's avatar) and then thought that all those great people I was thinking of that each country could claim as their own...well, they should be celebrated not as great __________s, but rather as great human beings.

So I've gone back to what I was originally going to say about feeling national pride. More and more, we need to stop looking at the flags over each other's homes and start looking at the home we all happen to live in together.

'Great' is to differentiate it from the other, historical Britain, by the way, as well as the fact that technically it's a supernational entity :P

Either way... Countries are an interesting thing. There's nothing wrong with groups of people inherently,or even with reasonable pride - while I don't take it to excessive levels, I am proud of our achievements in everything from technology to exploration to influence - but it doesn't make any one the greatest anything.
As caveman said, values can certainly make someone proud, but not the country itself. After all, as many criticisms of America as I have, they still have some excellent ones- while their political system leaves a lot to be desired, it is still more democratic than many, and they have excellent concepts such as freedom of speech and separation of church and state, which are honestly what the world needs.
Theoretically, the world could go on without them, although it would need huge changes, particularly in certain areas of the world, with people who simply do not accept democracy and individual rights. If it is actually practical though, I doubt it.
It may be completely random chance as to nationality, but that doesn't mean that whereever someone is, they can't work for change, for a united world.

You can't change the past ma tsmukan, its the way things roll in the 21st century.

(my country (USA) is called "the greatest country on earth" because we are/were the leading economic power, the leading military power, the most nukes (not the best reasons)
gave the most aid to other countries, helped keep peace in countless places, and brought many insane dictators and rulers to justice. The land of the free, home of the brave. (good reasons)

This couldn't be further from the truth. The United States currently owns 9,600 nuclear weapons, while Russia currently owns 16,800.

Makes me think of something Shakespeare wrote. "Tis but thy name that is my enemy; Thou art thyself, though not a Montague. What's Montague? it is nor hand, nor foot, Nor arm, nor face, nor any other part Belonging to a man. O, be some other name! What's in a name? that which we call a rose By any other name would smell as sweet; So Romeo would, were he not Romeo call'd, Retain that dear perfection which he owes Without that title".We are all just humans. Regardless of where we come from.

USA #1 in foreign aid? By reasonable measures it is 17th; see Pro-science: Is USA the biggest foreign aid donor? .

People like to form teams and affinity groups so they have something to belong to that they can compare to another group. The only time significant numbers of people are going to identify themselves primarily as citizens of Earth is when we get invaded by another planet. Countries are the most visible signs of this tendency to self-divide. Even the Na'vi formed clans.

The United States has by far the best story of any country on Earth. The struggle for freedom, self-determination, the pursuit of happiness - it's the stuff of Disney theme park rides and endless stirring movies. It is worth dying for. It communicates itself so well, the meme has got independent legs now and the legend is almost certainly at odds with the actual history of the USA in some respects. It is certainly at odds with how the USA has conducted itself in increasingly despicable and underhanded terms on the world stage since World War II, but the meme is so strong that the public perception of the USA is still mostly driven by and matching that favorable image. It's like the old saying about how an attractive lie can be out of bed and halfway across town before the truth has got its pants on.

I suppose if you are tribal you feel a deep connection to the land. For example, In Australia, the Aboriginals see the land as their spiritual home, their ancestors from the dreamtime and a deep part of themselves. Then they would see the land as something to be proud of.

The U.S. says its the greatest country on earth, but I feel its a way to "brainwash/lie" to its citizens & hopeful immigrants. They say its the "land of oppurtunity" where they tax you on honest hard earned money (excuse me, CURRENCY), & need a license for this, a permit for that & expensive healthcare costs that come out of pocket. Everytime a new immigrant is granted citizenship they're trapped in this prison/tax system.

We're told this so those who are "asleep" & potential immigrants will want to come/stay here & support & go along with the gov's policies/rules/agenda. I believe this country is the biggest scam on human beings to steal wealth thru a failing dollar (search: fiat currency) from its citizens & give it to big corporations/military ind.complex/elite.

Within this next year, I will be renoucing my U.S. citizenship & when its set in motion I will start a thread on my experience.

(will try to attach a vid that generally explains some of my fealings)

The American Dream By The Provocateur Network - YouTube

I agree here, and it makes me sad more than angry :'( because if everyone who is upset just leaves, what will get better? Who will be here to make it better? We have such a stalemate government that I feel like the whole country will collapse before anything changes.

I think it's important to be proud of where we come from and the things that make us different. Though I don't think one has to constantly be telling others nor should one believe that they are better than another.

I support Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish nationalism but that's as far as I go.

Clearly you have no idea of the British political situation then :angry:.

How would you feel if I said that I supported Sydney or Melbourne 'nationalism'? I'm fairly sure you'd say the same thing to me about Australia. Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland ARE countries, they have their own parliaments. Britain or the British Isles are not a country any more than Australia and New Zealand are one.

Inform yourself of a situation before you take a side, making an uninformed comment like that really annoys me as someone who lives here.

I am proud to be British, but I don't feel that any such pride, by any country, should lead to wars or similar, but having no interest in where you are from for the sake of political correctness or a country's past performed by people who are long dead (rather than a genuine disagreement with the government, for example, such as in the middle east).

How ignorant of you to assume that I have no idea of British politics because I mention that I support nationalism and are you basing my supposed ignorance since I am typing my response from Australia? >.< I always knew that Britain was made up of countries, I haven't been living under a rock. Last time I checked people from other countries have just as much of a right to talk about countries as do native born people.

When I mentioned Nationalism I meant on a sociological/cultural level which is concerned with a united identity of the people concerned or simply self determinism in regard to practice of culture and language. It doesn't have to always be concerned with politics.

I'm too frustrated and indeed tired to even try to counter your argument..
I'll just say this..my yearning for Nationalism has been from my Welsh father and his family..And not everyone in Britain wants to be affiliated with England under the umbrella of "Great Britain." I've looked at the Scottish census results, and I've seen the resurgence of movements like the IRA.

Fantastic video tm20, I don't think anyone could say it better. :cool:

I have to say that that video is interesting.

I really don't give a damn.

There are more important things to worry about and aspire to than what today's sorry excuses for world leaders care about.

I'm not an "American". I'm a human, if a highly reluctant and misanthropic one.

If I had the ability to do so, I'd make everybody in the world shut the hell up, solve each other's problems and play nice. I hate humanity because it can't do that itself, even as it hurtles towards it's own destruction.

In a kind of a twist of irony, I generally don't think the idea of formalised 'countries' is a particularly grand idea, that we should be a lot more localised than that, and that single governments should not govern such a broad area as they do, if at all... However, I do feel a national pride in my country. I do not consider myself British, I always choose Welsh if I have the option on anything I fill out, I always will refuse to sing the 'British' national anthem, I feel a pride when I see the Dragon,but not the Union Jack and yet, I do not strictly know why, I just feel that these are my fellow countrymen, that even though we may have largely interspersed in modern times, i'm still proud to have a Celtic heritage and that - fundamentally - I do not feel a part of a 'British Isles' in terms of very much at all...

I would like to stress, however (and I think maybe this is where the communication breakdown happened between Pa'li and HNM) that I am NOT a member of a 'Nationalist party' such as the IRA, Plaid Cymru, SNP or EDL - for their respecive countries - as many of those people exhibit 'irrational patriotism' (to varying levels). I am more than happy for immigrants to come into our country, as long as they have something of value to offer to society, like most other citizens here. I will dismiss anyone who is clearly happy enough to take without giving back from society, be they Welsh, Irish, English, Scottish or any other nationality for that matter. It is alright to love your country, to cherish your identity as a person of a certain nation, but to then exhibit that pride in an extreme fashion, or by pushing it onto other people or by pushing *them* out of your own culture, even when they do not seek to destroy yours isn't fair behaviour.

I suppose I should of used the word self determinism more than I should of used nationalist. But thank you, thank you Fkeu by helping to prove to people like HNM that there are people out there who don't feel "british" and fall more into their own ethnic identity.
Though I am in Australia, I feel more Welsh than anything because it fills a hole that australian culture has lacked. I feel pride when I see the welsh dragon and I feel that the people of wales shouldn't feel yoked to be "British" especially when all my father's family and a lot of other welshmen and women don't like to be affiliated with England. My father especially mentioned his disgust for Margaret Thatcher who practically decimated the industry of Wales and Northern England to serve the interests of the people of southern england.

Basically I feel that Scotland, Ireland and Wales have been put into this concept of britain that superficially unites all the countries even though England is better off over all the countries, as it has been since the medieval days where they used Wales and Ireland to try to take Scotland.

Another example: If everything is fine and dandy then why was there protests and action when the Queen recently visited Northern Ireland in May?

Yes, I see what you're getting at...

But I don't feel the same sense of betrayal or iniquity that maybe you do... If the English *are* better off, than fine, that's great. That's their business to do with what they like, but I agree that all of the UK countries should not be lumped together and claimed as a 'single state', because it is simply not true.

To go back to what I was saying earlier about localisation, the Welsh have a very different set of issues to what maybe any of the other UK countries do. In fact, the problems that my town faces are more than likely very different to what people up in the Valleys or in major cities like Cardiff are suffering with, which is why I believe it is a mistake to try and apply blanket approaches to tackle all of the "UK's" problems, when that approach could - in the end - harvest more difficulties for people in other situations. Say, for example, that people in London are found to be claiming more benefits than they should be, because the living standard is so high in London... through a standardised system, they need to reduce *all* of the benefit payments across the board. However, the people in places where work is scarce or near-on non-existant actually *need* that much money to physically sustain themselves. If their benefits drop, they will struggle even more than they do already. So it ends with the person in the richer part of the country getting what they should, rightly... but the person in the poorer part getting less then they should.

This is part of the reason that Wales and Scotland have devolved from centrailised government, because basically, we have different issues to deal with. Wales is not England. Thus, we have different ideals, different issues, and also a different way of thinking.

I see where you are coming from and I think I understand what you mean. Issues in one locality are different in others, which is why local government is normally pretty effective in dealing with the issues faced by their population. The same thing happens here because this country is so broad both ethnically and geographically. For example the local councils in the shire deal with different issues in the City.

*Sigh* I just get annoyed by imperialist ideas held by one country over others. I also support Hawaii and I hope that someday they can get their independence from America..Lots of the people are pretty unhappy there.

Lol, you ever been to the UK? :D

But seriously...

Yes, I agree with you there. The CCCP was a somewhat similar situation, there were many so different countries divided up within the Union that constituted so many different ideals, situations and cultures that were all branched under the same heading. Really, few people felt a part of the Union itself, instead lending their loyalty to the separate 'sections' they were attributed to. They felt Yugoslavian, Ukrainian, Armenian... They did not feel truly 'Soviet'... And while they had their own localised governments, they answered to the Premier, and in the end, this cultural/social divide helped it's downfall. Another example actually lies within the Unification of Germany. for the unification to be sicessful, it took the 'manufacturing' of a social background and a heritage to bring the people together. Without that, they still felt loyal to their independant regions.

So basically, until all states, countries, counties etc. feel they are all alike in terms of cultural stance and 'flag colour', then they will never feel united - and to label them as so would be foolish.

Nope I was actually speaking about the local councils (gov) that we have here. I thought that came across pretty clear in my post. ;) They deal with issues for their localities better then what the state gov can.

I wasn't basing it on your location , I was using an analogy which if I had honestly said, I am fairly certain you would have stated that I did not know the situation there.

Both of which exist, but neither of which have anything to do with nationalism.

The IRA are terrorists and so is anyone who supports them, particularly since Northern Ireland has consistently wished to remain part of the United Kingdom and the people who suffer through their actions are ordinary people, while Ireland's financial collapse is only exacerbating that. The situation is more complicated in Scotland, but a lot of people there seem to forget that the vast majority of their funding comes from Westminster - as the situation currently is, Scotland with no ties to Britain would be completely inviable.

If you had simply said that you were interested in their unique cultural elements, language, etc. , I would have understood, but equating that with nationalism is not the same thing at all.

Saying 'England is better off' is completely unrelated to the reasons why - that not only is there a far larger population, but there has been much larger development of the economy and investment. There were protests much as there are anywhere - because some of the aforementioned people who oppose Northern Ireland's right to exist nonetheless live there. As it was, the protest were both small and ineffectual.

Nobody ever said they were except for the very first post, which appeared to falsely imply it, hence my reply.

That is exactly why there are local parliaments and even entities like city/town councils within countries...

I can understand people being proud of whichever part they are from - I am proud to be both British and English, but all four nations owe a LOT of their success to the United Kingdom, particularly when the smaller ones receive more tax revenue than they produce locally. I know most of this was prompted by a misunderstanding of the word nationalism, but there are many misconceptions.

Indeed, which is why I tried to word my response in a "So what, if they are..." kind of a way, but less bluntly expressed. :P

True... But ultimately, they do answer to a higher power. I'm not saying that counties aren't independantly controlled at all, but I am simply suggesting that maybe all counties could be completely devolved, so that issues can be locally, and only locally, targeted. Of course, this wouldn't be a viable option to any single government, a central hub would still exist, but instead of a 'chain of command' so to speak, where ultimately, the centre decides what's best, the separate counties would simply come together to discuss what is needed in their area. So basically, each county has it's own PM. Of course, communication would have to be A1 for such an opperation to work, and a different stance adopted towards the idea of the political system.

Again, this is true... But what is to say that the separate countries couldn't function as separate entities. There are many countries smaller than the UK, even smaller than it's separate constituent parts that operate alone, and get along in the world just as a lot of other countries. Just like any other UK country, the Welsh live lives much like the English, Scottish or Irish do - and as you rightly pointed out, said countries, on their own, also have much lower populations, which could potentially make self-sustainance as a country much more reasonable - So why should there be a struggle if the UK should splinter into it's separate parts?

I like the idea of a country with loads of political parties which has only a few higher representatives making decisions, at least on the national level. I'm so tired of all the terrible gridlock in America, and then when a decision does get made, it's awful :'(

Okay so I might of gotten the terms confused a little however once you got to read more of my posts I think you could get what I was trying to say.
Here's a hypthetical situation here: If I saw someone's post that was similar to mine, a statement with no reason or explanation put forward I would actually ask them to explain themselves and put the reason why they think that way. That way I don't unintentionally upset anyone and I can make a clearer understanding of what they mean for when I would debate with them.

Does this make sense?

Some people do end up saying one thing but meaning something else, they might get their words mixed up and the like. It would save alot of frustration and miscommunication if people actually asked for people to explain themselves before they make a judgement.

I do understand your point, now the misunderstanding is resolved - but I just didn't think that such a point would appear in a thread about countries themselves, particularly when such identities actually cross borders as they formally exist, and adherence and interest are far from universal anywhere.