I had no intentions of starting a derailing discussion, and I'm sorry if it seemed that way. I'm merely stating the fact of the matter that caught my eye.

To clarify, one can discuss spirituality in opinion-based fashion, but the same does not hold true for scientific discussion(Well I mean one can do it, but it's pretty pointless). That is the only fact I intended to point out, and it has nothing to do with my opinions, yours or anyone else.

I'm only interested in cold hard facts as far as this discussion is concerned, so feel free to smack me with a trout or whatever you deem necessary for the job if I start dabbling with opinion-based arguments.

Sadly yes, with all the restrictions and hardly any of the benefits. Much rather be a machine in today's world, but that's an entirely different topic.

HumanNoMore...

In reply to your first post:
ToS would not be "torn apart" by a new subforum discussing non-scientific issues - I've yet to see one good reason that could ever happen. As for AF - you do realize that many here feel the atmosphere on ToS has changed lately as well, right? We admins are only the voice of our users - you said you "could not with good conscience administrate ToS" with this subforum. Does that hold true even if the majority of our users want it here?

Remember how ToS was founded - as the member's forum. It will still always be.

And you keep talking about how this subforum would be some kind of elitism group. Well, then everyone enjoying books is an elitist group. And people who like to discuss music. Etc, etc. As I have said many, many times over, this subforum would be based on an interest - the interest to discuss things non-scientifically. Nothing else.

In response to your second post:
See the above. It's absolutely not an "elite group", but a subforum like any other. Nothing that differs it from any others. We visit the music subforum when we are interested in discussing music. We visit the Environmentalism subforum when we are interesting in discussing things from an environmental perspective. We'd visit this subforum if we are interested in discuss things from a non-scientific perspective.

That's it. With all due respect, I think you are overcomplicating things - a lot.

So we all need to expect a sh*tstorm if we ever dare to speak spiritual words? And speaking opposing views is 'causing problems'?

Then, in that case, I don't know if ToS is my kind of place any more.

I'm going for now... I have other things to do. But i'll be back when I have more time to reply.

I know people perceive that. that is the entire reason behind http://www.tree-of-souls.com/general...urn_roots.html

No - the equivalent of the books of music subforum would be a philosophy one, for ALL points of view. This is like having a subforum for a specific genre of music or book series. A philosophy one is based on interest, this would be based non interest and specific view.

Again, then it needs a better name and a logical equivalent at the very least, although I really do not see why a philosophy subforum could not be "no matter if you want to discuss something from a logical or subjective view, this is the place to do it" or something similar.

No.

What I meant was that the entire forum should be 'safe' and if that is the reason behind wanting this, it shows that t he idea of ToS has failed. People should be able to make any thread. You should make a spiritual thread and not get an argument, and, equally, I should be able to make a logical one, or one on technology, without being based by anti-science posters.

What I meant was that everyone needs to be aware of others as they post.

Simple: you're setting up a group based entirely on opinion and elevating that group's status unfairly.

Your metaphor is shaky. The correct analogy would be if HNM set up a LotR forum with the added proviso you weren't allowed to criticize LotR. If you do want to discuss LotR critically, you are silenced, because there is nowhere to discuss that.

I know that this is possibly not the best of examples, but this line of reasoning sounds suspiciously like the reasoning that's usually used to say banning gay marriage is fair: everyone gets to marry only the opposite sex, nobody gets to marry the same sex.

I hope I don't need to elaborate on why that logic is actually unfair. :P

No, we need to be able to stop expecting a flamewar, somehow.

HNM, I think you are misunderstanding the forum request. The idea is to make a subforum for non-scientific discussions. A subforum allowing both (as you suggested) would be entirely irrelevant.

And in response to your second post - even if that was the case (which it clearly isn't at the moment), a Spirituality subforum would still be great for other reasons. Imagine a new member coming here and thinking "I wonder what spiritual discussions may be here..." - then this subforum would instantly help him find them. Considering there is a large demand for having such discussions, this sumforum would also help greatly for structure.

Clarke: So, are we elevating music interested people by having a music subforum? It's the exact same thing - a subforum based off a common interest. The music one, discussing music. The spirituality one, discussing non-scientic matters. ;)

Also, as I have mentioned before - I would be all fine with a strictly scientific equivalent as well. I have nothing against that whatsoever. ;)

I don't want to split the community. It creates a perception of them and us, and it encourages yet more arguments. The resentment will not be kept within a subforum.

No, because music covers all types of music. If it was only for metal, that would not be fair on others.

Honestly, I don't want either. There is no need to divide the userbase.
My thread on bringing back how ToS was seems to have failed.

The poll is up:

http://www.tree-of-souls.com/suggest...um_-_poll.html

IMO, you should nuke the third option. A scientific option can be a seperate poll.

Do you guys realize how many times you've all mentioned the word "misunderstanding" in your replies? "No, you're misunderstanding."

Clearly we are all just seeing this problem from entirely different views, and with this thread now being 6 pages in and still discussing (debating?), IMHO, I do not think this will lead to anything other than pointless gibberish. If you guys can't agree now, after 6 pages... will you ever? Just my 2 cents.

(I am aware that this isn't adding anything to the "discussion", just wanted to get my voice heard.)

Yep. The problem happens when someone convinces themselves that the other "side" holds their viewpoint only because "they don't understand", not because they just see it a different way. There might be some misunderstanding, but for the most part it's just different interpretations and that's not going to change. In 6 pages or 10 or 50.

I certainly agree 100% Icu, but the discussion, debate, whatever won't end until a final decision has been made about this subforum thing. Actually, to this day no one has given me any sort of reason why it can't be "Ideology" instead.

The only helpful option in this scenario is to do nothing, because any sort of subforum just sweeps the problem under the rug. The issue is people being scared to voice their opinions, because they're under the impression they'll be attacked for it. That cannot be fixed by shuffling everything to its own section, as the Debate forum has already demonstrated.

So if spiritualist wants to discuss spiritualism, where should they go?

Anywhere! I would literally be fine with it being done anywhere, since most often, spirituality is discussed around other things anyway, such as dreams or impactful experiences. Talk about it anywhere, don't even hide it, see if I ever complain or ever EVER have.

I don't want to quote anybody. But I agree that it should be voted / polled & that tastes differ. Those who like music post on music, those who like cars, know where to go etc. But why people who want to talk about meditations etc. have to wander around ToS like gypsies & just see where they fit? Imho if there's a demand for such a forum- an opportunity must be given.

Me, I want the subforum. People who read "I dreamed about Pandora" thread would have seen a couple of my dreams & that's about 10% of things I would talk about on that forum. Spirituality covers many subjects, & things like meditations don't fit into be Ideology, Religion or something similar, so Spirituality is fine imho (it it happens at all).

I don't think I saw any opinion that attracted so many attacks in more or less rude terms as a non-scientific point of view. Imho it doesn't hurt anybody (as long as people of the subforum behave within the general forums rules) - so it should have its place to be expressed. Talking about attacks & trying "to bring people to their senses" - I would say it's like somebody trying to bring Avatar fans to their senses telling them that it was just a movie and they are plain silly to make such a big deal about it & trying to pull them out of their fantasy - haven't we all heard that? If somebody has a problem with the other not willing to see the world in a purely logical way (but rather going by intuition for example) - the problem is simply not being able accept a different opinion, I don't see any other problem. it's back to the old issue of respecting different opinions I am afraid.

And to balance it, first, there is already a Science & Technology forum - where I don't usually go. But if there really is a need for a Science only forum - I honestly don't mind, & I even if I decide to read something there I certainly won't go & try to educate the scientists & tell them they are wrong for a variety of reasons.

I have never attacked anyone. If it has happened in the past, we should let that be the past. I don't know why we need to create Spirituality as our legacy that we had problems. If the counter were also implimented, it would not be a Science subforum, it would be a Secular subforum, and the only reason we would need that would be if all opinions couldn't be tolerated in Spiritual. This is why if we are refused the Secular subforum, it would be ideological discrimination and hypocrisy.

Personally, I do not understand how this is not a moderation problem: people being hostile should be removed in the appropriate manner. The people being attacked do not need special protection for particular views.

well, why not seeing this as a part which can lead to interesting talks, at least if people agree to behave nice and friendly.

i seriously dont understand why everything often gets so much hate, if there is a different opinion it should be possible to speak about it NEUTRAL.

Its all a thing of the personal ego.

Nothing more or less.

Exactly.

Ideology encompasses a whole range of views.

Having a subforum because people don't feel they can make a thread about something anywhere else is a symptom of a problem - that problem is what needs to be resolved, and that needs everyone's cooperation.
I discussed that here: http://www.tree-of-souls.com/general...urn_roots.html

How about this: The enviromental subforum and the Technology Subforum.. There are people in the environmental thread that don't follow mining or GM crops and that is against technology. There is in a way already a split in the community. However, both these subforums contain the members who wish to speak about topics and normally they don't argue with other members. The way I see it it's actually preserving the peace..The spiritual/philosophy thread would be no different because there is already a scientific subforum..We'd just be implementing the other half.

Are you saying that Secularism doesn't deserve a subforum because we use logic all the time? Because that was one of my main reasons for why we didn't need a Spiritual subforum; many of us are affected by spirituality all the time. Spirituality also always applies to something else, dreams, meditation, impactful experiences, etc. You are being hypocritical.

**EDIT** Sorry Aquaplant, I totally missed your point. I didn't see your other posts and took this out of context.

Science/technology is a thing. It's for discussion of new discoveries.
It is not for looking at the world in general objectively.

This subforum would be the ONLY one where only a specific way of thinking is allowed.

Enough said.

I don't know about that: I don't know if anyone specifically said what the subforum would cover but I think that the subforum could include anything that wouldn't fall into the science category such as talking about meditation, journeying to ancient ruins, coming into contact with a tribe and that sort of thing as well as discussion about spirits and OOBE. It encompasses all those things.

Exactly, as well as many other things.

It's not just one subject, it's an entire school of thought.

Having a spiritualism board has worked pretty well at Dreamviews. Just sayin'... (They have secular/science boards, too, if anyone was wondering).

That's interesting. Just as I was thinking having separate subforums can work alongside each other.

I think they have the potential to work just fine, but of course, I'd rather we just work out our qualms with no new boards :P

The plan, as I understand it, is not a board to purely discuss those things, but to discuss those things while banning scientific analysis. e.g. no bringing up the God helmet in the context of meditation.

As HNM said, it would be the only board here that restricts ways of reasoning. Either implicitly or explicitly, you're sticking a big sign on the door saying, "Reasoning not allowed."

Alright, after some thinking...

I'm saying yes to this sub forum. But honestly, I don't care any more, dropping out of this discussion and out of virtually this whole forum, because frankly, things and people will never change.

Honestly, do what you want, because I don't relly give a damn any more.

not sure about this. I am thinking about something in Moco Loco's Dreams (general). Moco posted a dream. I suggested an interpretation. Moco said something like "View it as you wish, I only wanted to make a bizarre, funny & weird dreams thread." And that was it! Problem solved! Nobody says: "you should change your point of view for mine" - interesting dreams, loads, imposing one's views on the other - no. Especially that it was the author who said what she was actually interested in - & going to someone's house & imposing your rules there... what sort of manners are those? If anybody wants to talk on interpreting dreams - I am here :P if not - free choice. & that's imho what it should be about! Opinions are welcome - but opinions, not slagging off or "What the hell have you been smoking out there?"

Then the problem would be one of moderation, not organization.

So what if someone wanted to discuss ancient ruins who was not allowed in that subforum? what if someone wanted to talk about meditation and 'out of body experiences' (OOBE - yes, I do know what it means) from a logical perspective - e.g. the placebo effect and dreams for the latter.

I fail to see what ancient ruins have to do with such a section. As for 'tribes' - isn't that environmentalism?

Edit: I understand now. That's how things should be :)

For that reason, we do not need a special subforum.

HNM, I honestly think she was agreeing with us. She was saying all that needs to happen is an understanding that neither of us are imposing over each other, and I agree.

this yes - & it applies to any exchange of opinions on any forum, subforum or thread.

a reason I would personally like a special subforum is to have a dedicated place for "this stuff" rather than searching across the whole ToS "Just where would that fit?" & trying to squeeze it here or there in a "more or less suitable" subforum hoping nobody says "This doesn't belong here". Like we have threads for music, fan art, Pandora & what not.

As for OOBE & the like... "wait till it happens to you!" ;) all I can say. Hope nobody has to go thru toooo intense experiences for that. Like clinical death & the like, I honestly wouldn't wish it to anybody. Altho the result might be worth it :P

I thought the point was that if you had to do that, you could put it in General.

I will try not to be dragged into this too deep, but I think that such a forum would be a very good idea. I see that one of the problems here seems to be that the OP suggested to have a special form of discussion implemented - basically to make a subforum not merely for one topic of interest, but also for a certain style of discussion, namely non-scientific ones. That certainly is a bit of a special one and I see HNMs point that this is different from a books forum. On the other hand, I think this is maybe needed for this kind of subforum.
The way I would envision this subforum is, that people could post threads there about their own experiences with spirituality and exchange with other likeminded people about this. The problem with such discussions in any of the other subforums is, that it usually turns rather quickly in a debate about ideology, which is why I think "Ideologies" would be the worst name for a subforum. So while people in the science forum can talk about science and discoveries and the implications of this in a scientific (that includes ethics and implications and global political effects) way, a post about how I received my spirit name, what a tree told me last week or how sound and stories make our world would immediately be torn into a discussion or debate about if these topics are "real" or not. So what I would wish for is a room to talk about these things and see what others who experienced something similar feel without having to defend myself against "god helmets" and therelike.
The opposite perspective would be if discussions on dark matter, findings of new planets or antimatter would be met with discussions on the general validity of science, if there would be posts that say there are no other planets because god made only the Earth or any other posts questioning the method of finding these things directly. I have not seen any such posts recently in the science forum. So there are no posts I am aware of that say that the Earth was made by god in 7 days and that Earth is only 10000 years old or that the environmental problems do not matter because there will be the new age coming anyways - or the rapture - or aliens from aldebaran. And wherever there were discussions about spirituality and science, they were in the context of something else.

But as I said, I see this forum if it is created not as a place to discuss the validity of the experiences described in a scientific view or as a place to discuss which one is "true" - science or spirituality/religion. I would not object to have some threads in that subforum that deal with that, as long as they are titles properly, but I would like to see some form of "safe space" implemented in which one can post a spiritual topic and stay on topic with that instead of the topic getting derailed into the eternal "science versus religion" debate.

I may just be new, but I've never seen that happen. Can you cite an example?