Are we deceived by computer generated beauty?
 

It seems that by creating certain types of faces, with emphasis on features and structures that we perceive as attractive we can be manipulated in such a way that we prefer the computer generated features before the ones in real, living humans. This can be seen in the fact that at least some individuals thinks that the computergeneraed beauty of Neytiri exceeds the beauty of most real women.

Neytiri is not alone. In a reserach project where one morphed together the faces of several contenders in a beauty competition, people who were shown images of the competitors and the morphed image of them, preferred the morphed computer image.

If this trend increases will it give rise to a society where more and more of us will long for unrealistic images of a would be future partner while we overlook real people? How many have not perhaps overlooked a real, beautiful and nice girl because their minds have been fixed into some dream of Neytiri?

Here is something about virtual beauty:

Beautycheck - virtual miss germany

That's not being deceived.
The Miss Germany on the right is way more attractive.
Neytiri IS better looking than most women because she was based off of the golden ratio of facial symmetry, and has no flaws. I don't see how it's manipulation. If you think a face is beautiful, then you do. Everyone desires beauty when it comes to themselves and the people around them.

That's not being deceived - that's just optimisation. It's taking features that are appreciated and creating a new combination - much like happens to any human via a random element; simply removing the random element from the picture.

You seem to be implying Neytiri is NOT attractive, in a disparaging tone - that to me seems like a clear agenda right there - well, yes, Neytiri IS attractive, and more so than many humans. Remember that ~50% of everyone is below average in any given respect. If I didn't know better, I'd think this thread was a concern troll.

Humans vary. Unless you're implying all humans are equal and ideal, then it is blindingly obvious to even someone stupid that some people (or depictions) are better than others. There is no reason that does not extend to depictions in general, as it has done for hundreds of years. The whole 'uncanny valley' idea is complete rubbish, it is arguable up to a point but then becomes terminally flawed.

So I'm not allowed to prefer and want a very attractive woman?

Why is this statement in the future tense? :P

As technology improves, and the Virtual becomes as real to the senses as the actual mundane world, we might have something close to the first Matrix movie. The "Virtual reality will be far more enjoyable that the humdrum real one. VR will become the new drug of choice.
Niri Te

As true as that could be, Niri Te, that has little relevance in this case.

I think that we all have our own view on what we find to be appealing or beautiful. Though there can be some generalisations here and there. Of course Neytiri really does seem to appeal to everyone, and I think that's not just the way she looks but also her personality is really attractive as she is really passionate, dedicated, loving and wholesome and that makes her appear even more beautiful as an individual, albeit a computer generated one. I don't think there's a problem with liking the appearance of a computer generated character at all to be honest.

But if you could plug into a computer and have it render for you your dreams imperceptibly from reality; why would you ever wake up? Why would you ever unplug?

- Mikko

But is it not at least somewhat manipulative to use special geometrical features to trigger some inherent instinctive pattern for perceiving beauty? Its little like manufacturing a lure for fish that exaggerate the sorts of movement that triggers reflexes in the fish that makes it attack. In commercials and other contexts these beautiful, artificial faces can perhaps manipulate us to buy things, or to support things we should not have supported without them. At least it is some kind of risk. And can it not be some risk that we loose ourselves in dreams of unobtainable and unrealistic beauty, while we miss out on the real beauty out there in the world?

At the same thing maybe these images can make women trying to manipulate themselvws (plastic surgery and other stuff) just to be like the computer generated faces in order to be more attractive. Is it not something of a danger in that?

I do not deny the attractiveness of Neytiri, but at the same time she is not real, she is just a computer generated image (that borrows voice, body language and some features from Zoe Saldana and who act upon a script). No real woman can be exactly like that. A risk with such a character is that some people will dismiss real women because they cannot live up to the standard of her. And still they are real, but not she.

And one do not have to be a troll because one sometimes can see through the fantasy and see the reality behind it.

But perhaps one still must see the difference of a computer generated image that is designed to trigger our instincts (as the fishing lure is to the fish) and real women. Unfortuantely many women today feel that they are forced to try to live up to more and more unrealistic ideals.

Well, some people (myself included) find humans mostly, if not all, unappealing. Some people have very specific preferences. And some find attractiveness in almost everyone, and in some cases, everything. Might as well leave it to them.

A little off topic, but it might turn out to help with our population problem anyway.

@ OP: I think what this comes down to is you are mistaking the attraction some of the people feel here for physical attraction. Do not think Neytiri fanboys are so shallow :P I don't doubt some slimy individual somewhere just sees her as a sex object, but that's not us. While Neytiri is indeed very beautiful, the greater part of why people love her is because she has the kind of personality many men would love to have in a women. Beauty aside, another thing that gets us is that she is alien and has unusual features, a tail for example. People like new wierd things, they're interesting.

Yes, i was talking more in general about computer generated women and beauty. When it concerns Neytiri, i agree that her beauty not only sits in her looks but in her personality. Still one must not forget that also her personality is a result of a combination of computer image, acting and script writing. She is not real, and it seems that several people think that no, or few, real women can live up to her standards. One can wonder why a fictionary person is considered so superior to real women, in several aspects.

I think that Women CAN achieve that level of ecological maturity, though due to their upbringing. I believe that women raised in a Native environment have a much easier job of it. The woman who is sharing our 19 anniversary with me today and I are both part Native American, and we were both raised immersed in the culture, but in families that had no problem with alcohol, so it is VERY easy for us to "keep it real" in day to day life. Neither one of us would even be considered "pretty" by society's standards, yet because of our feelings about, and actions while upon, the wheel of life, make each of us beautiful beyond words to each other, not because of physical appearance, but because of who we are. That is not an unreachable goal for people as appearance is, and if people strive to emulate THOSE qualities of the character of Ni'tiri, they would remove a lot of stress in their lives.
Niri Te

The thing is, it doesn't trigger anything, nor would men cream their khakis when they see an image like that. Nothing is really manufactured because there's already pre-determined features that can make one beautiful. Like I said, there's a "golden ratio" when it comes to facial symmetry. No one's going to have to have the latest Swiffer vacuum (Which looks pretty bad ass) just because a symmetrical, beautiful woman told us to buy it. Well, maybe some men might, but I hope not.
If women want plastic surgery to be more symmetrical, they should be able to do so. That goes for men as well. It's good to encourage an environment where no one is judged by their physical appearance, but let's be honest, that will never happen. Ever. We live (in North America at least) in a world where men usually gain recognition and status through wealth, and women who are beautiful are usually much more powerful. And it all goes back to having sex (though that's something for a different thread).

The "beautiful Miss Germany" image, though symmetrical and appealing, I'm sure most wouldn't go "goo-goo eyes" over a woman who looked exactly like that. She's pleasing to the eyes, yes, but there's nothing particularly ravishing. Every man (I think) has certain preferences that they look for, usually. I like when a girl has a small but visible scar on her face, I have a god friend who likes women with freckles and a friend who loves it when women have gauged ears, the bigger the plugs the better.
So I don't really things like images of symmetrical women can influence our desires or our opinions. I think.

Educate yourself.

Concern troll - RationalWiki

You are coming off as one.

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/1373/tinfoilhatq.jpg

That is impossible, because people don't react the same way to the same stimuli. There ARE individuals who are generally/widely considered attractive and ones who are widely considered unattractive. Neither is universal.

No, they can't (or, rather, no more than any other method of advertising), otherwise everyone would be constantly buying every advertised item. Advertising is highly competitive due to its nature, and the time and resources spend on research are extreme - if there was some magic formula, it would be literally omnipresent. On the other hand, production of images is generally cheaper, easier, and faster turnaround than using live models, the only discrepancy.

People do that anyway. Are you trying to imply that people DON'T fantasise about foo random celebrity/person they know/random person they walk past? If so, you have abandoned all pretence of having an actual point and this can be seen as nothing more than concern trolling.

So you oppose plastic surgery? Wow. What next, forcing everyone to not show their faces in public because some people are better looking than others? Becoming the Handicapper General from Harrison Bergeron?
If someone wants to seek an ideal in appearance (or any other respect), it's their right and prerogative to.

Ada Wong of the Resident Evil series is an attractive woman and CG too. But do i have to look out for a girl that looks and act like she does? No, because its a Game. And there are a lot of Games and movies out who wouldn't work without any kind of beauty and all that... in case of Avatar, especially Neytiri, stop wasting time and words about some researchcrap... Thats not the reason why iam at ToS!

Still many companies and their marketing divisions seems to think so. How many times have they not tried to sell all sorts of things by having beautiful looking women in commercials? And if you manage to enhance the features that we perceive as beautiful further by computer imaging, then why could that not be used to even sell more products?

well, I suppose you are right, but perhaps one at least should try to curb the most excessive tendencies of promoting specific ideals of beauty. After all eating disorders (anorexia and similar) and other fixations about weight and looks is a growing health problem in the industrial world and it costs a lot of suffering and resources.

You read to much into my posts. I just like to see different sides of a subject and discuss different apects of it.

Sometimes it seems that you are too intolerant and go berserk as soon as anyone questions some aspect of your favourite fantasy world.

So why is there at all a whole industry (marketing, commecials and similar) that make a living on triggering our instincts by showing us different kinds of stimuli, among them pictures of people that have features that at least many people in our culture find rather attractive? Behavioral psychology do actually show that there are features that triggers certain responses in us. Also different companies spend millions to find the right triggers to use in marketing.

Noone talks about a magic formula, but still there are things that are known to trigger our emotions and desires. And they are frequently used.

Yes, obviously many people loose themselves in all sorts of dreams. Some do it in such a degree that they forget the real world, they become passive instead of trying to actively make the real world a better place.

As I mentioned before, to hysterically try to conform to some unobtainable ideal of beauty have distorted the minds of many young people (especially girls) leading to different disorders (as for example anorexia) causing a lot of suffering in our society.

But that perhaps is of no consequence as long as some company can make a lot of money profiting from it?

Because there is no magic method. If there was, a while industry would be unnecessary. You just answered your own question :P

That isn't magic. It doesn't guarantee anything, and can be done with humans too.

...and? That's their prerogative.

That's their fault. People can still aspire to anything they like and should do so without a wannabe Handicapper General telling them they can't.

As I said noone said anything about magic, but still there are a lot of tricks to trigger different kind of psycological responses in us. If there were no such things commercials would not be profitable.

Passive citizens can be a danger ofr society since many of them just go along with all sorts of bad things without trying to fight them. Democracy is dependent on active, well informed citizens. Passive or uninformed citizens can lead us very wrong.

Many people can obviously not see the connections between their own actions and the way the world looks like today.

Unfortunately the commercial messages telling us how we shall look and what is beautiful or not beautiful actually cost many lives (eating disorders can be deadly) and a lot of suffering among young gullible people. Many of these young people are not mature enough to withstand the tempest of messages that tell them how they must look or act to be accepted.

The stupidity of this thread is beyond words.

Being passive isn't dangerous, being ignorant is.

Well, many times ignorance leads to passivity (and also the other way around). And being passive means that you many times just go on consuming and living without actively making informed choices. And such consumption in its turn contributes to the destruction of our world.

We live in such an interconnected world that everything we do, or not do, have implications for our world.

It's useless to fight a loosing battle, and the sooner you realize this, the sooner you can stop trying.

This is certainly true, but again, there's hardly any alternatives to be had when it comes to certain necessary choices.


Anyhow, the main issue I have with this thread is the whole 'nobody wants real women anymore' nonsense. Then again I guess it can be true to a certain extent, but the reasons behind that are much more elaborate than the stuff you go on about.

Well, then one can perhaps just sit down, turn on the screen and sit there until the end of days.

Hopefully there can still be different choices if one actively pursues them.

The main issue is rather that many women (and especially young girls) believe that they must live up to some unrealistic standard of beauty. That causes, in the worst cases psychological disorders that sometimes can be dangerous (as anorexia). And there are some guys that contribute to the mess by demanding that girls must comply to that standard.

What does this have to do with anything?

People choose to do and believe whatever they want, and that is not fault of anyone else.

Well, anorexy and similar conditions is a rather big health problems that affect many young people. It causes suffering and also drains resources that could be spent on other things.

And peoples choices are not always their own. Many young people are so easily affected and manipulated so it ought to cause some concern what we brainwash them into.

I guess I don't have to wonder anymore why people don't take you seriously.

Better speak for yourself since you can hardly know how many that might or might not take me seriously.

With the we, that you underlined, I meant our society in general, which we all take some part in.

The only thing that advocates this beauty standard that you speak of are part of the cosmetics industry that make loads of money because women spend huge amounts of money on vanity products and all that jazz.

Trying to blame individuals is just plain wrong.

There's nothing wrong with that either. People want to look good, and shouldn't be banned from doing so.

In my personal experience: No.
Beauty is a complicated matter, for some it is everything, for others it's just a bonus of life. For others, everything is beautiful (its own way...). Do I like Neytiri? Yes. Does that make my wife "ugly"? No, if anything, it makes me see that my wife is the most beautiful thing I've ever seen and I am grateful that she loves me as I love her.
So, that's it, IMHO.

It is not just the individuals, it is the system itself, and the "culture" it leads to, that leads us to search for superficial beauty and superficial pleasure.

People have been trying to look good since the stone age, so it is probably a part of being human, but to commecialize beauty (especially the kind of superficial beauty that is obtained by plastic surgery and similar) and put harder and harder pressure on those who do not conforme to the more and more unrealistic standards we are setting up, seems to lead us in the wrong direction.

Why is this thread even active still?
People like attractive people. No one's looking for a 9 foot tall blue chick. And no one thinks bone thin models are attractive.

Explain how beauty is being commercialized.

When our perceptions of beauty are used (or manipulated with, or even created) to sell different products, both to make us conform to that beauty (as in everything from makeup to plastic surgery or diet pills) or to sell other kind of products, then one can say beauty, or our concept of it, is commercialized.

http://www.livetradingnews.com/wp-co...-Show-Girl.jpg

A take on the problem with unrealistic and unhealthy stereotypes of female beauty.

Beauty and Body Image in the Media

Again, why the emphasis on plastic surgery? Sounds like you have some kind of personal vendetta here.

People who do not 'conforme' (sic) are making their own choice. If someone makes a choice that impacts themselves negatively, that's their own fault. You're acting as if people have actual problems being accepted if they don't fit some nebulous and nonexistent idea of what you hate. That's not true - take a look around and stop trying to make yourself feel hard done by.

You can't force everyone into some conformity with the lowest common denominator so that their feelings won't be hurt at the expense of everyone else. You really should read Harrison Bergeron.

EVERYTHING is linked to depression, and I find your use of that as a point in an argument belittling to those who actually suffer from it.

That sounds... almost naively simplistic. Everyone makes decisions for a reason, and the most effective way to change peoples' decisions is to change their incentives. Ideally, you want to do that in a way that means that people are dissuaded from choices which harm them or others.

However, I think redpaintednavi is more concerned with the effect CGI and manipulated images have on peoples' self-esteem. There's a disconnect between the images the media are presenting of what is "hot" and "beautiful" and what is actually healthy, and people aim for the former without being aware of that disconnect. This results in them aiming for an ideal that isn't actually possible, and their self-esteen suffers because they fail to reach it.