This is only your opinion. It isn't wrong to eat meat. We are ommivores and you will not be able to convince billions of people to stop. I agree that there does need to be better practices in how we obtain our meat. I would love to buy organic and free range meat but it is very expensive and I am just a poor woman.

That isn't going to happen. People of every culture, race, etc have been eating meat of various sorts and quanities for thousands of years. Vegetarianism is only possible either in a monastic situation or a completely urban situation. If any of us had to actually live like the Na'vi or live off the land there wouldn't be any vegans. It only works in a completely urban environment away from the actual land.

What I find interesting about some arguments for going vegetarian are the ones that are coupled to a "back-to-nature" appeal. One of my friends made this argument, and couldn't really counter my response.

Hello! Look at our teeth. We don't have only flat, herbivorous teeth! No one in this thread has, to my knowledge, made this argument that going veggie is part of "getting back to nature." However, I find it laughable to discuss "back-to-nature" while simultaneously violating nature's intent.

This "vote-with-your-wallet" mentality is easy to talk about, but very difficult to implement. Especially when it relates to something essential for life.

Unfortunately, the crux of the argument in this thread relates heavily to morality, that slippery concept that everyone agrees we should have but no one agrees on exactly what constitutes "moral" and "immoral." It is clear the poster of this thread believes eating meat is both immoral and economically inefficient (referencing the carbon cost of meat production).

The problem is that strength of belief in convictions alone doesn't make them true, nor does it necessarily convince others to agree with you.

Countdown to this being moved into the Debates forum in 3...2...1...

It's not an opinion, it's a fact. We can digest a lot of things we don't have to eat.

I think that when something causes suffering and is unnecessary it is wrong in some way
No noone can do that. But if i convince 1 I still would be happy ;) And if everyone ate less meat, that would change a lot to.

I agree with you on this one ;)

Theres always someone who has to pay the "cost" for cheap food. That is kind of the essence of the whole problem (the animals, some worker in a poor country, the eviroment and so on). There's a reason "good" food costs more...

No but the lesser meat we buy/eat the lesser will be produced

I manly talk about the western society and the way we abuse the animals and treat them as products without feelings.

Actually I only heard that argument made from the other side ("we have fangs and so on") The only thing our teath "prove" is that we are Omnivores as discussed before :)

Yes, it is difficult. I buy things now and then I know I shouldnt, I tough to always do the right thing (whatever we feel the right thing is)

I agree with you somewhat here. Moral issues is always a difficult subject. But I'm also trying logical conclusions. (If x causes pain, and pain is wrong, hence is wrong )

He he you're probably right...

(I wasn't trying to start a debate, but that was probably naive of me to talk about a delicate subject and still think it wouldnt start a discussion.)

You wont be able to cut down meat consumption even if one person stopped. Ever heard of the 72oz steak challenge down here in Texas? Now thats a lot of meat LOL!

Okay now seriously, based on your issue on if it causes pain it is wrong than the Na'vi are bad? They cause pain to the animal so that they can survive and stay healthy.

Also on your argument of being able to be vegetarian. As someone else stated before this is only because of modern society. If you were stranded in the wilderness you would need the protein from meat to keep your energy. Now that we are such a dominate species and have greater technology and ease of living things have changed. Though we are meant to consume a mixture diet. This is un-arguable, look at our teeth for evidence our digestive system. Just because you think it is wrong that I enjoy a big ol juicy steak etc does not mean it is truly wrong. Only wrong in your eyes.

Exactly Gunny!

hey Gunny, try to read the thread before posting, or I have to reaply to same arguments all the time ;)

I said that that it's a fact that slaughterhouses are causing suffering and to support suffering is bad.
I think the action to cause someone unnecessary pain or suffering is wrong, dont' you?

I've never claimed vegetarian is the best choice always and in every situation.

Se previous posts...I'm getting tired here :war:
I said why I think it's wrong and you haven't exactly proven me wrong...

And can't digest things we didn't evolve to survive exclusively on.

I agree. I don't like factory farming of animals, or killing them in inhumane ways.

I never said that it's the only thing to eat, but it IS important to get some in a healthy diet. It doesn't need to be often, just once or twice a week.

I agree that that's wrong, but there's still nothing wrong with actually raising animals for food.

Anima, Gunny, et. al. : You cannot prove someone else's moral convictions "wrong" as hard as you try.

I personally don't have a problem with vegetarians, so long as they respect my choice to eat meat as I respect theirs not to. Crossing into accusations of "supporting animal cruelty" (from vegetarians) or "eco-hippy-ism" (from meat-eaters) is where I exit the discussion since it's not productive.

Trying to make someone feel bad about eating (or not eating) meat using weasel words and loaded statements doesn't help anyone. A running theme in this thread seems to be that anyone who eats meat in the present is deliberately supporting animal cruelty or the infliction of unnecessary pain. While this may be true, repeatedly pointing it out in an effort to guilt-trip them won't accomplish anything because it returns to the arguments over the whole morality of the practice.

Sovereign has a good point there. It's not even really true, there's no unnecessary pain. I am opposed to any unnecessary suffering of animals, but people still need to eat. A quick, painless death after a proper life (not raised indoors in cramped conditions), I see absolutely nothing wrong with.

I should add I see agree that there is nothing wrong with the idea that animals can be raised for food. The idea itself is not to me inherently unethical, since animals eat other animals. Methods used are the primary concern, I think.

I do not agree with any stance of "humans should know better" since, if it was truly something we "knew" (as we know how to walk, eat, breathe and the like) there wouldn't be a debate since it would be part of our nature.

well I think one problem is that we talk about different things here. To simplify it:

Statement:I say slaghterhouses cause suffering.
Statment: I say it's not necessary to eat meat to be healthy.
Statement: when you buy something you support it
Argument: if something causes suffering and it's not necessary it's wrong.
Conclusion: it's wrong with slaghterhouses.
Conclusion2: if you buy meat produced in slaghterhouses you support suffering.

Most of the responses that desagrees with me, argue against the conclusions when you should be argumenting against the statments (can be proven) or the argument (moral statment therefore harder to "prove") IF you think my conclusions are wrong. The conclusions are only logical result

Remember "A guide to debating, by Spock" http://www.tree-of-souls.com/showthread.php?t=450 :war:

Or we all can take the easy way out and se it like Sovereign does: we have to agree to disagree :)

Anima, I did read the thread as you can see by my multiple posts in this thread. I am on my phone atm but will have a full rebuttal for you when my class is over.

Well that sure makes me feel better. Not :(

I started this thread because I was feeling sad about some stuff and hoped fore som support and thoughts, witch I got in the beggining but now most of you seems to think the most important thing is to crush me. I'm feeling alone here and even more sad.

I'm not trying to give hate to you meateaters, I'm just trying to explain why I feel the way i feel about this issue. I often cry when I think about the suffering and I come to this forum to feel good.

I guess today it didn't work....

I disagree with both.

Again, arguing something isn't necessary just because you don't like it isn't a valid argument in my opinion.