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Dreaming Of Pandora 05-29-2010 10:09 AM

Everything Was Made From 'Nothing.'
 
Here's a thread I posted on AF a while back. This will get you thinking.

Even though this thread is sorta pro-God I just want to make clear that Im agnostic.

To answer a question like this may be science's biggest breakthrough, an utterly outstanding achievement, a testament to the human intelligence. It's something science cannot prove and most likely never will be answered ever. It's truly uneasing when you give it a bit of thought.

Everything we know that exists, from the coffee that you sip to the entire universe was made from nothing.

Well that's what we know so far but there are several theories speculating the origin of the universe. Theories like our universe being one of possibly millions of other multiverses or that our universe was made by the collision of two cosmic membranes.

With theories aside, let's say that a higher form of intelligence did create our universe, who or what created the creator of our universe? And who or what created the creator of the creator of our universe. It goes on.

It's quite mind-boggling, there must have been a point in time (if time always existed, which again further complexes the question, how can something or somebody create time?) when nothing at all existed, nothing, no atoms, no energy or information to a point in time where something did exist (which again complexes the question, how can nothing create something).

So basically, our existence is based on the fact that at certain time, nothing at all existed ever.

Right now, we dont know but if we have learned anything from science it's that it is full of surprises and can take forms we couldn't imagine possible.

Uneasing as this question may be it is also comforting, if this question is true, that everything was made from nothing, then that means our existence has purpose, a reason for being here because right now, we shouldn't be here, what we know of what's physically possible says that our existence should be impossible.

I guess the short answer and probably the human answer is: Chuck Norris did it.

Any thoughts on this?

Na'vi_supporter 05-29-2010 10:29 AM

I can't count how many times I was thinking about the same theme. All explanations in the end collapse to the fact you mentined - create something from anything and furthermore to create something some initial "force" is needed to start thing up. And this is unfortunatelly cyclic definition.
I built up my own opinion that we simply can't explain anything before point zero, because we are part of the universe and our brain capabilities is limited by this. Maybe the truth is so trange that we can't even be able to imagine it. Even now there are effects that aren't well compatible with our mentality - nice example is quantum entanglement. And it's still only our universe, the things behind our universe(or better said our view of universe) must be ... very weird.
Well, I know that this is not much rigorous scientific answer, but that is only solution I can think of right now :). Anyway science doesn't know answer so it is well justified :)

rapunzel77 05-29-2010 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreaming Of Pandora (Post 46487)
To answer a question like this may be science's biggest breakthrough, an utterly outstanding achievement, a testament to the human intelligence. It's something science cannot prove and most likely never will be answered ever. It's truly uneasing when you give it a bit of thought

.

I agree although I don't think that science will be able to figure it out completely. There are some mysteries that might never be answered.

Quote:

Everything we know that exists, from the coffee that you sip to the entire universe was made from nothing.
Exactly.

Quote:

Well that's what we know so far but there are several theories speculating the origin of the universe. Theories like our universe being one of possibly millions of other multiverses or that our universe was made by the collision of two cosmic membranes.
As you say below, this doesn't explain how we got here too well because the question arises, where did those universes or cosmic membranes come from? Who or what created them?

Quote:

With theories aside, let's say that a higher form of intelligence did create our universe, who or what created the creator of our universe? And who or what created the creator of the creator of our universe. It goes on.
This is why I honestly believe it takes more faith to believe that God or some other forced didn't create the universe. Isn't it easier to believe that He did. Science has not shown and evidence to disprove this. In fact, with the latest discoveries of just how complex this universe is, the idea that it all came by chance is wanting. Everything is so intricate and complex from the tiniest cell or atom to the biggest galaxies. Just look at DNA and how it is structured or even some of the issues in quantum theory/physics, etc. It is soooo complex that it had to take some sort of very complex intelligence to create it all.

Quote:

It's quite mind-boggling, there must have been a point in time (if time always existed, which again further complexes the question, how can something or somebody create time?) when nothing at all existed, nothing, no atoms, no energy or information to a point in time where something did exist (which again complexes the question, how can nothing create something).
Exactly :). It is truly mind-boggling. We will probably never be able to discover all the secrets that the universe carries. There is just to much to learn.

Quote:

So basically, our existence is based on the fact that at certain time, nothing at all existed ever.
Yes.

Quote:

Right now, we dont know but if we have learned anything from science it's that it is full of surprises and can take forms we couldn't imagine possible.
This is true.

Quote:

Uneasing as this question may be it is also comforting, if this question is true, that everything was made from nothing, then that means our existence has purpose, a reason for being here because right now, we shouldn't be here, what we know of what's physically possible says that our existence should be impossible.
I agree :). I believe we were made out of love and for love. This whole universe was created out of love. Our existence seems impossible but yet I am here typing away on this computer and you are there typing away on yours. We are here and there must be a reason for it. It couldn't be by chance. Especially when you look at the immense complexity of the universe.

Quote:

I guess the short answer and probably the human answer is: Chuck Norris did it.
LOL :D:D

Human No More 05-29-2010 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreaming Of Pandora (Post 46487)
With theories aside, let's say that a higher form of intelligence did create our universe

Let's not.

The universe itself quite possibly doesn't exist within time... there is no ending or beginning, it's just that it is perceived as being that way by life.

Alternatively, the entire universe is, to quote, "Merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one"

rapunzel77 05-29-2010 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Human No More (Post 46811)
Let's not.

The universe itself quite possibly doesn't exist within time... there is no ending or beginning, it's just that it is perceived as being that way by life.

Alternatively, the entire universe is, to quote, "Merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one"

Interesting idea but how would that square with the latest in scientific discovery that reveals that the universe did start at some point and has expanded and will continue to expand? Perhaps we will learn more about the origins of our universe at CERN where they are conducting experiments to determine how it all got started.

Dreaming Of Pandora 05-29-2010 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rapunzel77 (Post 46796)
.

I agree although I don't think that science will be able to figure it out completely. There are some mysteries that might never be answered.



Exactly.



As you say below, this doesn't explain how we got here too well because the question arises, where did those universes or cosmic membranes come from? Who or what created them?



This is why I honestly believe it takes more faith to believe that God or some other forced didn't create the universe. Isn't it easier to believe that He did. Science has not shown and evidence to disprove this. In fact, with the latest discoveries of just how complex this universe is, the idea that it all came by chance is wanting. Everything is so intricate and complex from the tiniest cell or atom to the biggest galaxies. Just look at DNA and how it is structured or even some of the issues in quantum theory/physics, etc. It is soooo complex that it had to take some sort of very complex intelligence to create it all.



Exactly :). It is truly mind-boggling. We will probably never be able to discover all the secrets that the universe carries. There is just to much to learn.



Yes.



This is true.



I agree :). I believe we were made out of love and for love. This whole universe was created out of love. Our existence seems impossible but yet I am here typing away on this computer and you are there typing away on yours. We are here and there must be a reason for it. It couldn't be by chance. Especially when you look at the immense complexity of the universe.



LOL :D:D

Good post rapunzel. :) It's ironic that science and religion used to be enemies but it seems now with every new discovery in cosmology points towards a higher form of being having created the universe or, just with every new answer in science is bringing more questions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Human No More (Post 46811)
Let's not.

The universe itself quite possibly doesn't exist within time... there is no ending or beginning, it's just that it is perceived as being that way by life.

Alternatively, the entire universe is, to quote, "Merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one"

We know that the universe is expanding, it is expanding in all directions from a single point in another dimension [think of it as air expanding a balloon, we can't get to the middle of the balloon as we're bound to the outside layer (space/time), thus the Big Bang happened in another dimension we can't reach. This also, technically means that we are at the center of the universe, again, think of a balloon, the center of the outside layer is all around the balloon, which means the center is everywhere]. The fact that the universe is expanding from a single point means that the universe had a beginning, and will have an end.

So if the universe is bound by time (it has a beginning and end), then that means that there is a region outside our universe where things exist, but probably in another dimension or are nexuses between multiverses.

So if there's a region outside the universe, then something must've had the information to create it, or some event must have caused the creation of the universe, like cosmic membranes colliding with each other to form the universe.

What humanity doesn't know is why or how the universe ever began.

Devourment 05-29-2010 10:10 PM

I've talked for days with many different people on this subject, so I'll leave it at this

Take your statement which it seems you assume is what all atheists agree with(it's not, we don't all say everything came from nothing, we just don't know where everything came from, and we probably never will)"Everything came from nothing."

Now, tweak it slightly.

"Everything came from God."

What makes more sense, "We don't know where everything came from but we see no evidence that it came from a God" or "We don't know where everything came from but an old book says god did it and a lot of people agree with it, so it must be true."

Woodsprite 05-30-2010 04:46 AM

First law of motion says matter can't be created or destroyed, so it had to be here at some point... big bang theorists are having quite a bit of problems with this one.

Of course, Alan Guth stated that everything came from nothing, and that mathematically, everything equals zero. Problem is, you can do all the math you want for any situation, and it can look good in the equation, but can't really occur in reality. For example, you can make a quadratic equation say that a negative number of inches is a solution for for the length of something, but in reality we all know that there's no such thing as a "negative" amount of inches. It can technically be "correct" on paper, but it can't actually happen.

Not to say that "Oh, because we can't understand something, that means God did it." No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying logic, which is the primary substance which science bases itself upon, is not the answer to every question, which leaves room for the fact that a God exists, and created this earth and the universe. Even Dawkins has acknowledged this. So did Einstein.

Human No More 05-30-2010 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woodsprite (Post 47239)
First law of motion says matter can't be created or destroyed, so it had to be here at some point... big bang theorists are having quite a bit of problems with this one.

So are religious people.

Quote:

For example, you can make a quadratic equation say that a negative number of inches is a solution for for the length of something, but in reality we all know that there's no such thing as a "negative" amount of inches. It can technically be "correct" on paper, but it can't actually happen.
Not as a scalar, but it can as a vector in 2D space.

Quote:

Not to say that "Oh, because we can't understand something, that means God did it." No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying logic, which is the primary substance which science bases itself upon, is not the answer to every question, which leaves room for the fact that a God exists, and created this earth and the universe. Even Dawkins has acknowledged this. So did Einstein.
Einstein never believed in a 'God', what he was referring to, which has often been misquotes, was in a way much closer to the laws of physics themselves.
Logic is not the answer to every question?... but a few hundred years ago, it was 'not the answer' to far more, which is now understood... what makes you think there won't be further improvements in the future?

Woodsprite 05-30-2010 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Human No More (Post 47614)
So are religious people.

...Not really; no.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Human No More (Post 47614)
Not as a scalar, but it can as a vector in 2D space.

That's assuming too much. Geometric objects don't exist in the physical realm; there's technically no such thing as "2D". Where the space for the universe came from is outside the studyable realm of science.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Human No More (Post 47614)
Einstein never believed in a 'God', what he was referring to, which has often been misquotes, was in a way much closer to the laws of physics themselves.

Einstein never denyed the existence of a god. He only claimed he never believed in a personal one, "personal" being the key word. But that's beside the point; I never said he believed in God, I said he never denied the possibility of one existing, and encouraged religion in fact. He was a self-proclaimed agnostic; to quote him (in context), he once said, "There are people who say there is no God, but what makes me really angry is that they quote me for support of such views." There are numerous occasions where he scoffed at atheists. No offense, just what the guy said. ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Human No More (Post 47614)
Logic is not the answer to every question?... but a few hundred years ago, it was 'not the answer' to far more, which is now understood... what makes you think there won't be further improvements in the future?

That's subject to the physical realm alone. You cannot ever, through logic, explain what the definition of "life" is, for example. You could explain how something is living, but never why. Same goes for emotion. Yes I know animals can feel empathy as well; that's irrelevant (in case you were thinking about mentioning that ;)).

Dreaming Of Pandora 05-30-2010 11:15 PM

A possible explanation to the origins of the Big Bang is well answered in Quantum Physics.

The laws of particle physics on a quantum scale states that particles can simply 'pop' into existence spontaneously for no reason whatsoever and abruptly disappear, again, without explanation. The laws of cause and effect do not apply on a quantum level, therefore there was no 'cause' of the Big Bang, it simply happened. This implies that there was no God or higher form of being that created the universe, nor was there anything else that gives reason for the universe to come into existence.

But there's a problem with this; how do the laws of quantum physics exist if nothing existed before the Big Bang? If no information existed before the universe, then the laws shouldn't exist either as laws are information. Also, if quantum physics states that particles can appear and disappear spontaneously, then why does our universe still exist? Why does it have an ending (the Big Chill). The Big Chill or Freeze states that the universe will continue expanding for an infinite amount of time, this is not the spontaneously disappearing that quantum physics says should happen.

Quantum physics also states that the Big Bang didn't happen suddenly. On a small enough time scale, it is seen that the universe gradually formed with space-time forming due to some weird **** when space formed a fifth dimension which, at a rapidly continuous process, created time. This states that time didnt exist before the universe, the universe created time and space as one.

There are yet more problems, if time was created in the Big Bang, then the universe should have always existed as there was no 'beginning', the beginning happened at the beginning, this makes no sense but apparently it can be proved mathematically.

Woodsprite 05-30-2010 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreaming Of Pandora (Post 47875)
The laws of particle physics on a quantum scale states that particles can simply 'pop' into existence spontaneously for no reason whatsoever and abruptly disappear, again, without explanation. The laws of cause and effect do not apply on a quantum level, therefore there was no 'cause' of the Big Bang, it simply happened.

Out of everything I've looked into on string theory, Guth's theory, and every other piece of info I've looked at, I've never seen anything on how particles can actually appear and disappear, meaning the matter can exist at one point, then become nonexistent. First law of motion is against this, so...

Where did you read this? I'm baffled by this, and (no offense, but) I don't believe you/this supposed "law".

Na'vi_supporter 05-30-2010 11:33 PM

Oh, more questions than answers :(

BTW are you sure about disappearing? Isn't it just change from wave form to matter form and vice versa (I am not skilled in quantum mechanics,maybe I am telling nonsences now )? Energy is what remains constant.

Dreaming Of Pandora 05-30-2010 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woodsprite (Post 47889)
Out of everything I've looked into on string theory, Guth's theory, and every other piece of info I've looked at, I've never seen anything on how particles can actually appear and disappear, meaning the matter can exist at one point, then become nonexistent. First law of motion is against this, so...

Where did you read this? I'm baffled by this, and (no offense, but) I don't believe you/this supposed "law".

alberteinstein.strips4you.com/?p=2030

You'll find it there; it's called the Principle of Uncertainty.

It also states that a particle in on area can suddenly appear in another, it also says that particles can reverse direction/change acceleration without an external force applying this acceleration.

Woodsprite 05-30-2010 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreaming Of Pandora (Post 47894)
alberteinstein.strips4you.com/?p=2030

You'll find it there; it's called the Principle of Uncertainty.

It also states that a particle in on area can suddenly appear in another, it also says that particles can reverse direction/change acceleration without an external force applying this acceleration.

This is incredibly interesting. Thank you! :) *continues reading*


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