what if Cameron takes us all by surprise? - Page 3 - Tree of Souls - An Avatar Community Forum
Tree of Souls - An Avatar Community Forum
Go Back   Tree of Souls - An Avatar Community Forum » Avatar Sequels » Sequel Discussion

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 02-06-2012, 01:31 AM
Niri Te's Avatar
Ikran Makto
Niri Te Is studying Na'vi REALLY hard
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Salt Flat, Hudspeth County, Texas, USA
Posts: 758
Default

I have a question for you Clarke, how much ACTUAL, NO WAR GAMES, ASYMETRICAL combat time do you have? I have three tours in Vietnam. I have seen first hand what non explosive traps, made out of nothing but jungle can do. This was during a time when we had something nicknamed "Rice Paddy Radar" that was slaved into the 20MM chain guns on the tops of 113's.
As far as advanced imaging equipment, the flux vortex would not allow the weaponry to pick up the arrows in flight, not no, but hell no.
There is still a fair amount of ammo on the base, use your head. The "natives" and the "Rebels" have won a military victory that very close to eclipsing the one at the Little Big Horn, when it comes to the numbers of enemy killed. The RDA was in NO position to take ANY of their weapons, ammo, fuel, medical supplies, or anything else with them.
They can consider themselves VERY lucky that they were not ALL taken out into the woods and shot.
They left behind aircraft, ampsuits, lots of ammunition, the crew served anti aircraft weapons that guarded the base, (possibly PLASMA CANNONS, they HAD the reactors to power them), there was a TON of stuff left behind for the Na'vi to fight with.
When it comes to the Ikrans "Flinging" flex wings into the mountains, they definitely COULD, this is coming coming from a pilot with flight time in five figure numbers.
There is this thing called torque moment, and it would NOT take more than a few hundred pounds of pressure in yaw on the very tail of one of those ships to send it spinning. If they did it close to something made of rock, the aircraft is gone.
Niri Te
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 02-06-2012, 04:38 PM
Clarke's Avatar
Karyu
Clarke wants his own Avatar.
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Scotland, 140 years too early
Posts: 1,330
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Niri Te View Post
I have a question for you Clarke, how much ACTUAL, NO WAR GAMES, ASYMETRICAL combat time do you have? I have three tours in Vietnam. I have seen first hand what non explosive traps, made out of nothing but jungle can do
As valuable as that would be in the case of Iraq or another modern war, in the grim darkness of the future, the "game" changes significantly. Obviously you know far more about this than I do, but I was under the impression that the Vietcong did not have ambulatory tanks.
...Because that's what an AMP suit is. It's an ambulatory, nigh-bulletproof mechanized tank. (which happens to have a massive weakness in the form of a weak windshield, but that's probably quite easy to fix.)

More generally, a war comparable to that between the RDA and the Na'vi has never happened in human history, because it's always been squishy humans fighting. Here, it's not: the Na'vi are orders of magnitude squishier than the RDA's AMPs and the like. They will die to weapons that will not scratch AMPs or shuttles, or most any other vehicle the RDA throws into the conflict.

Quote:
This was during a time when we had something nicknamed "Rice Paddy Radar" that was slaved into the 20MM chain guns on the tops of 113's.
Computing technology has marched on unrecognisably in 35 years. Apart from the fact that radar can't accurately detect man-sized targets, the control system for that device is going to be simplistic enough to run on my phone. A control system for a modern semi-autonomous weapon (e.g. drones) is literally orders of magnitude more intelligent.

Quote:
As far as advanced imaging equipment, the flux vortex would not allow the weaponry to pick up the arrows in flight, not no, but hell no.
So the arrow would not be visible in flight at all? That seems to be what you're suggesting, since a computerized system could take advantage of any sort of "vision" it likes, whether that's conventional radar, visible light, micron-wave radar, or infra-red.

Quote:
There is still a fair amount of ammo on the base, use your head. The "natives" and the "Rebels" have won a military victory that very close to eclipsing the one at the Little Big Horn, when it comes to the numbers of enemy killed. The RDA was in NO position to take ANY of their weapons, ammo, fuel, medical supplies, or anything else with them. [Snipped a bit] They left behind aircraft, ampsuits, lots of ammunition, the crew served anti aircraft weapons that guarded the base, (possibly PLASMA CANNONS, they HAD the reactors to power them), there was a TON of stuff left behind for the Na'vi to fight with.
The vast majority of it will be completely useless to the Na'vi, and the humans will not know how to use it. (Since the only human who did know got himself permanently turned into a Na'vi) The vehicles, medicine, and smaller weapons cannot be used simply because of the laws of physics and biology. Also as mentioned, practising with it uses it up, which is obviously a really bad idea.

(And plasma cannons are not effective weapons in an atmosphere.)

Quote:
When it comes to the Ikrans "Flinging" flex wings into the mountains, they definitely COULD, this is coming coming from a pilot with flight time in five figure numbers.
There is this thing called torque moment, and it would NOT take more than a few hundred pounds of pressure in yaw on the very tail of one of those ships to send it spinning. If they did it close to something made of rock, the aircraft is gone.
Putting that few hundred pounds of torque through the Ikran's neck, as Newton requires, is not going to do it any favours.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 02-06-2012, 06:16 PM
Niri Te's Avatar
Ikran Makto
Niri Te Is studying Na'vi REALLY hard
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Salt Flat, Hudspeth County, Texas, USA
Posts: 758
Default

You know, your ability to selectively misunderstand stuff is amazing. Like the Vietcong, the Na'vi would NOT be in AMPsuits, they WOULD NOT FIT!
To pick something up a small as an arrow in flight with all the magnetic chatter going on, would be VERY tough for the equipment to detect, and almost impossible for a human operator to notice.
Because of the limitations of the starships, there may not be ANY AMPsuits brought to Pandora, and even if there were some, you DON'T use arrows on them, you use the arrows on the soft squishy Marines.
There are others BESIDES Jake that know how that equipment works, if you paid attention at the end of the movie, there are several avatars holding Coax's on the parade of RDA being herded into the shuttle. If Trudy went rogue, it is entirely possible that OTHER pilots did as well, so there could quite possibly be a small cadre of pilots on Pandora as well. there were also non avatar humans with guns guarding the RDA being sent back, these were probably technicians, rogue military, and support personnel that took part in the deleted scene of the attack on the control room.
As for the anti aircraft defenses at Hellsgate, they would be used for incoming aircraft, not ground targets.
In the years that would transpire before another ship from Earth could arrive, Jake, and and the other humans would train the Na'vi in small unit tactics, IED's booby traps, etcetera.
From now on, I will only discuss this with other MILITARY COMBAT VETERANS.
Niri Te
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 02-06-2012, 07:27 PM
Tsamsiyu
Aquaplant has no status.
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 691
Default



Stay cool people.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 02-06-2012, 07:41 PM
Human No More's Avatar
Toruk Makto, Admin
Human No More has no status.
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: In a datacentre
Posts: 11,748
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarke View Post
I don't think you'd need an army there just to defend a new base. Depending on precisely what weapons you have available, you might need as few as 5-10, if you play them strategically. (Whether or not the RDA can play them sanely is an open question. )
1. They can't get it started.
2. They don't have ****ing WMD or whatever you're fantasising about. Go pay 40k or watch Battle Los Angeles or whatever so you can have your "mehrens killing teh aleins for being difrnt" and leave Avatar alone; it's not the genre you want it to be - tough.

Quote:
Unfortunately, Cameron broke my suspension disbelief fairly severely there. For instance, there is a moment where an ikran pulls a Sampson out of the air and smashes it into something. As good cinema as this is, I can't see any way it could physically work; the ikran should be far too light for it to be able to pull on the Sampson that significantly.
Unfortunately for you, that was toruk, and you fail to understand the physics of exactly how rotors work - if it's lost that vertical control, it can't regain it as easily as you believe.

Quote:
Set up your base in the middle of an empty plain, and defend it with large-calibre, long-range weaponry. This would be the solution if you were planning a new base, but obviously some compromises must be made if you didn't plan that from the beginning. Although a question in the case of the big machines such as shuttles and buildings is, "Evicted by what?" Eywa does not have a mass driver handy.
Nobody meant physically. As soon as any marine sets foot on Pandora, they are going to be dead, to say nothing of how eminently detectable their arrival would be, and the VERY small cargo available to them. An ISV couldn't even fit a base in it, let alone any marines, weapons or vehicles at the same time.

Quote:
The economics of mining unobtanium with antimatter-fuelled rockets do not work out sensibly in any model of economics I can think of. If cost is an issue, I can't really see why you would go at all.
We already dealt with that. You're already close to trolling here, so I suggest you leave it alone.

Quote:
That is a rather interesting catch-22: how much should you practice when ammo is limited?
Did you of all people forget about the stereolithography plant? Or are you just trolling for the sake of it?

Quote:
That really depends on what technology the enemy can throw at you. A bow and arrow is worse than useless against a tank, for instance. (And if the RDA fixed the glaring design flaws in the AMP's windshield, it would easily qualify as a walking tank.) Not only that, but if your enemy is particularly advanced (possibly more so than the RDA) they can just watch the arrow in flight, and find where it came from that way. In that particular case, the computer is incredibly powerful, and the Na'vi have no response to it.
No, it's not 'worse than useless', you still have options you don't with nothing. Learn basic English.
If they removed the ampsuit's windscreen, it would be unable to see where it's going. That's a big flaw, and one I assume even you would be able to understand why.

Quote:
This is another thing that depends on precisely what technology the RDA has available. It is impossible to both hide from infra-red cameras, and be able to fire back, for instance.
Nope.

INFRARED DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY. Stop watching bad films. It's great for tracking someone running across an open area at night, but in this situation, everything would disrupt it and you'd get a mostly-homogenous image.


Quote:
I was not aware you could read my mind.
I can read your posts, which are 100% invasion-fantasy bull****.
__________________
...
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 02-06-2012, 07:49 PM
Human No More's Avatar
Toruk Makto, Admin
Human No More has no status.
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: In a datacentre
Posts: 11,748
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarke View Post
As valuable as that would be in the case of Iraq or another modern war, in the grim darkness of the future, the "game" changes significantly.
hurr durr 40k. what have I always said?

Quote:
Obviously you know far more about this than I do, but I was under the impression that the Vietcong did not have ambulatory tanks.
...Because that's what an AMP suit is. It's an ambulatory, nigh-bulletproof mechanized tank. (which happens to have a massive weakness in the form of a weak windshield, but that's probably quite easy to fix.)
If you don't want to see where you're going at all, yeah, kind of.

Quote:
More generally, a war comparable to that between the RDA and the Na'vi has never happened in human history, because it's always been squishy humans fighting. Here, it's not: the Na'vi are orders of magnitude squishier than the RDA's AMPs and the like. They will die to weapons that will not scratch AMPs or shuttles, or most any other vehicle the RDA throws into the conflict.
THEY WOULD NOT HAVE GOT THERE. How can I explain this to someone of your level of stupidity? There is no way, plausible or implausible, for them to land some massive invasion force there. THIS IS NOT 40k. There are no kilometres-long ships with drop pods and massive lasers, there is no teleportation technology or FTL travel. Deal with it or GTFO, because, quite honestly, I'm sick and tired of your continual bashing Avatar for not being what you wanted it to be.

Quote:
The vast majority of it will be completely useless to the Na'vi, and the humans will not know how to use it. (Since the only human who did know got himself permanently turned into a Na'vi) The vehicles, medicine, and smaller weapons cannot be used simply because of the laws of physics and biology. Also as mentioned, practising with it uses it up, which is obviously a really bad idea.
So Jake has somehow lost access to knowledge as a human thanks to changing bodies? So the 10-20+ humans there are can't work things out?
No. Stop making such contrived failures of logic that even a six-year-old could unpick as being the fantasies of a Mad Editor who is bitter that Avatar wasn't some 'spess mehrens killing teh aleins' film.
Deal with it. Avatar isn't the film you wanted it to be, and is infinitely better than anything you could ever make, and going on about how you'd wipe out the Na'vi 50,000 different ways won't change that.
__________________
...
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 02-08-2012, 12:38 AM
Clarke's Avatar
Karyu
Clarke wants his own Avatar.
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Scotland, 140 years too early
Posts: 1,330
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Niri Te View Post
From now on, I will only discuss this with other MILITARY COMBAT VETERANS.
Niri Te
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarke View Post
More generally, a war comparable to that between the RDA and the Na'vi has never happened in human history.
Good luck. I'm being totally serious here, since I don't think the experience you're looking for exists, and I presume I don't have to remind you of the mess at the start of WW1 that resulted from officers thinking war still worked the way it always had.

HNM, can you come back when we can discuss this without you insulting my intelligence, motives and integrity?
__________________
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



Visit our partner sites:

      pandoraworld.ru



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:27 AM.

Based on the Planet Earth theme by Themes by Design


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.
All images and clips of Avatar are the exclusive property of 20th Century Fox.