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  #31  
Old 10-21-2017, 08:21 AM
Tsamsiyu
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A2 is going to be awesome I just find it curious why people whom think that Avatar wasn't that good, keep hanging out on a forum centered around the movie and complain about it, I personally think that some just have a chip on thier shoulder because they didn't like the movie and want to let others know about it( and no not just here on other forums as well). Avatar rocked my world when I first saw it, and it has sent me on a journey that I am glad that I am on, I have gotten the chance to meet great people, see awesome things and it has helped open my eyes to alot of the bs going on in the world right now, and nothing can take that away
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  #32  
Old 10-21-2017, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Wind12 View Post
A2 is going to be awesome I just find it curious why people whom think that Avatar wasn't that good, keep hanging out on a forum centered around the movie and complain about it
I think it was good - average, at least 3/5, worth watching.

The universe JC created though, Pandora and everything should be a blockbuster, so I hope the rest will be good.

But I hang out here because some of the die-hards defending this movie are odd people and funny to talk to, calling me a sky-person etc, not really entering into meaningful debate or dialog about the film or why I dislike specific aspects.

If Avatar had two main leads, Jake and another human on the RDA side, it would have been a much stronger film, they tried to do this with the Col. but there wasn't much attachment, Jake's brother should have been alive, with jake serving in SecOps without the disability he had, Jake's brother is an arrogant ****er and that native lady, although drawn to his brother, finds Jake odd but curious about him because his 'different' from the other grunts.

then the film jumps between the two as the tensions esculate etc, the audience free to decide which side is right or wrong, shades of grey everywhere, something happens to jake's brother or there is a direct conflict between the two, his brother is killed, Jake is invited to take his place, does so, realises things are not what he thought they were, builds relationship with the native lady, quickly tries to sort things out with the Col and the RDA, like a great tragedy the two sides fight, Jake saves the natives but is worried now about humanity and what he has done, coming to terms also with what he has lost but focuses on his new found love..

YA KNOW, DEEP THINKING STUFF!

If I saw a film like that I would of been amazed emotionally, instead of the cut and paste we got.
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  #33  
Old 10-21-2017, 08:39 PM
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So you think it is "funny" that people think differently than you, and I see you labeled the fans "odd", frankly If I saw a movie that I thought was ok, but didn't think it was great, I wouldn't mess with a fan site about it, who cares if people like it a lot and I don't, I have other things in life to focus on, like stuff that I like, personally I don't find humor in people who think different than me, oh, I might think something I hear is humerous, but I am not going to pester them about my opinion on something just to get a laugh out of it, but thats just me As for the idea about the plot, well if I honestly thought I could do better than a movie that made almost 3 billion dollars, and had that kind of insight, well, I think I would have a different job I would be getting my script out there
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  #34  
Old 10-21-2017, 08:50 PM
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Oh, I accept numerous faults. I just don't, and won't, accept some of your opinions that you apparently think I ought to despite acknowledging their subjectivity.
No you don't. Your clear stubbornness to admit what countless others have said is evidence of this. You highlight "your opinions"as if I'm the only person that thinks that Avatar lacks depth etc. A possible reason why Avatar was such a big success was that it was one of the first films at the time to offer 3D viewing, and it was relentlessly written of how it was a visual spectacle (which god damn it was!) - and was a comeback for James Cameron after a long time of little production. After the release however - it died off. It had next to no cultural impact, I mean I've never heard anyone IRL use a quote from Avatar, yet other JC films nearly always have a few good quotes people reference to; Is this not enough evidence of the lack of plot/depth in Avatar? Avatar was not a classic for most people (asides from a handful of people on here).

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Nor do I feel any need to go out and bash, harass fans, or accuse the guy of not doing his job, or make personally-biased speculations that Nolan flicks are going to fail
Excuse me? Are you insinuating that I'm harassing you? When did I say JC isn't doing his job? Personally Biased? The only person that's personally biased is you - you even mentioned yourself how Avatar 'hit you like a few freight trains' or something, these sentiments are what block you from seeing the faults in Avatar.

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They are not so under the surface. Dig more.
*Hits rock bottom* Erm... I can't dig anymore?

You: Get your drill out and dig deeper!! I'm telling you - If we dig deep enough (say another 20 miles down) you'll find the characters personality I was telling you about.

Me: But you can't go any further!

You: DIG!

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You need to have some dynamic range.
Sounds like you need to get some dynamic range if you think the characters in Avatar are worth writing to home about.

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Well, spoiler alert: Titanic sinks! Avatar is the same deal.
Maybe because Titanic is a historical film? Avatar isn't, Avatar was made for Hollywood and to make profit - heck James Cameron even raised ticket prices weeks after the release to maximise profit - at the very least it shouldn't be predictable and should excite audiences. Nice try though.

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Depth? For a taste of that, do some research on the roots of the concept of an avatar i.e. in hindu mythology. Now rewatch and note how many layers there are to the concept of avatars in the film beyond the physical namesake ones. i.e. Jake obviously drives an avatar, his brother's avatar. He possibly IS his brother's avatar, in another sense. He is Eywa's avatar in the sense of divine incarnation or servant, as toruk makto. His character is, arguably, specifically constructed to function as an avatar of the audience member more than any other defining attribute. The film is strongly an ideological projection/treatise of its writer and thus could be regarded in a way, as an avatar, a projection or a form taken.
This is all pure speculation, which only die-hard fans like yourself would know. The rest of the general public won't (and judging by the number of active members on tos which you can roughly count on about one hand - haven't) research this stuff - so is frankly... useless and has no impact on how the film is seen - maybe JC should have made this more explicit in the film?

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Both of you had better start ordering that roast crow, because you're gonna be eating a whole lot of it.
I hope you've started stocking up as well. I wouldn't get too cocky.

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Originally Posted by Wind12 View Post
A2 is going to be awesome I just find it curious why people whom think that Avatar wasn't that good, keep hanging out on a forum centered around the movie and complain about it, I personally think that some just have a chip on thier shoulder because they didn't like the movie and want to let others know about it
My lord. Did you not read the previous post I just made? Also Avatar came out 7 years ago - if I had a chip on my shoulder I would have forgotten by now - not like the film got really popular and started spawning loads of merchandise etc. TOS is literally the only forum for Avatar. Don't know anyone whose heard of Avatar so much that they would need to sign up to a forum and start posting about it.
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  #35  
Old 10-21-2017, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Wind12 View Post
So you think it is "funny" that people think differently than you, and I see you labeled the fans "odd", frankly If I saw a movie that I thought was ok, but didn't think it was great, I wouldn't mess with a fan site about it, who cares if people like it a lot and I don't, I have other things in life to focus on, like stuff that I like, personally I don't find humor in people who think different than me, oh, I might think something I hear is humerous, but I am not going to pester them about my opinion on something just to get a laugh out of it, but thats just me As for the idea about the plot, well if I honestly thought I could do better than a movie that made almost 3 billion dollars, and had that kind of insight, well, I think I would have a different job I would be getting my script out there

agree with you, Wind, and may i point out that these members have full cups and cannot See. my love and devotion to this film, it's world, it's themes and messages, and the magnificent People, are not dictated by anything from our world nor effected by it. my consciousness is somewhere out there in the universe, striving for moment of contact with Eywa, so i can show her there are reasons to help Gaia and the enlightened of us. my cup is not full.
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  #36  
Old 10-22-2017, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Wind12 View Post
So you think it is "funny" that people think differently than you, and I see you labeled the fans "odd", frankly If I saw a movie that I thought was ok, but didn't think it was great, I wouldn't mess with a fan site about it, who cares if people like it a lot and I don't, I have other things in life to focus on, like stuff that I like, personally I don't find humor in people who think different than me, oh, I might think something I hear is humerous, but I am not going to pester them about my opinion on something just to get a laugh out of it, but thats just me
I'm here in my free time, and Avatar is going to blow up eventually with the sequels, so this place should come alive with discussion etc. Hence I'm waiting.

I don't pester people... the issue is that this community is so small you only have the die-hard fans, Gaia worshipers, hardcore green-peace types left around, all hearing the same tune, saying the same things.

Then I come along, and it's unacceptable to a lot of you that someone has a difference of opinion, you're telling me this is normal behaviour?

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Originally Posted by Wind12 View Post
As for the idea about the plot, well if I honestly thought I could do better than a movie that made almost 3 billion dollars, and had that kind of insight, well, I think I would have a different job I would be getting my script out there
I didn't expect someone so anti-corporate to say that success/profit is enough to determine a good product/result. So when the RDA make billions off Pandora, the ends justify the means lol.

To bring it back to reality, horrible films can make a lot of money, because people have to pay to see them and judge later, this film has JC's name on it, it's a name that fills seats, but like Sir R. Scott has just done with Alien (trashing it) JC can also make the same mistakes.

As for why don't I put scripts out there? I've done some personal drafts and writing, but I just don't have a passion for it. When I am much older/retired I would like to write a novel.
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  #37  
Old 10-23-2017, 02:33 AM
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Originally Posted by discounthobo159 View Post
...stubbornness to admit what countless others have said ...visual spectacle
That, assuming for a moment that this is a true statement, doesn't lend any more gravity to what is still subjective.

You also do not have any evidence that the forumgoing demographic, which is a minority, is a fair representation of popular opinion.

By contrast I can point at the low opening followed by sustained box office results as an indication that spread of opinions among the public i.e. the oft cited word of mouth were a significant positive impact on the success of the film. This pattern does not agree with a success based on empty spectacle or successful advertising that isn't delivered on, which tends to cause rapid deflation of the bubble once people are watching it and reacting to it. Most blockbusters are closer to this pattern than Avatar and if detractors and negative opinions were not the minority they are, this would be what would have happened to Avatar as well.

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Originally Posted by discounthobo159 View Post
A possible reason why Avatar was such a big success was that it was one of the first films at the time to offer 3D viewing
No, it was not. 3D has a very long history of revivals and of being mostly (by numbers) regarded as a cheap-thrill gimmick. Avatar happened to use it, and turn around opinions of it by using it in a manner regarded as tasteful and forward-looking. What has happened to 3D's reputation post-Avatar in the hands of others seems not so bright.

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Originally Posted by discounthobo159 View Post
After the release however - it died off. It had next to no cultural impact, ....yet other JC films nearly always have a few good quotes people reference to;
This is nearly a WORD FOR WORD plagiarism of many a trash comment and there is still no evidence anywhere.

Died off in what way? Do you have a point of comparison that consists of a single film and not a franchise with 3+ times the material released as Avatar (or Titanic)? Do you have surveys of the public to back any claim of a film's non-remembrance? How do you account for the fact that every statement that Avatar has ostensibly "not been remembered" or "not stuck in the public's mind" is self-refuting by nature?

Had no cultural impact in what way? Most people use as a metric something such as dialogue quotes (a very narrow way to approach an audiovisual medium in which dialogue is not the only way to approach storytelling, as well as overly biased toward hammy, comedic content gaining traction) and merchandising (which is transparently shallow).

By these standards, cultural impact involves funny Arnie/Paxton type lines and selling action figures to kids, which are both about as deep and meaningful to "culture" as a puddle.

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Originally Posted by discounthobo159 View Post
...I mean I've never heard anyone IRL use a quote from Avatar, ...Avatar was not a classic for most people (asides from a handful of people on here).
"Not a classic for most people" = inarguable for total lack of evidence = empty statement.

"Never heard" - Not my experience at all. Someone at work just referenced Avatar as recently as a few days ago when attempting to describe the concept of a mech suit to someone: "It's like in Avatar. When they're getting in the suits". "OH YEAH..." It isn't representative of anything more than the subset of people in my area I am around, but it counts exactly as much as your claim to the contrary on the same basis.

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Originally Posted by discounthobo159 View Post
...Is this not enough evidence of the lack of plot/depth in Avatar?
There isn't evidence behind any of those claims in the first place, so no.

Furthermore, those claims - that it isn't quoted and referenced - do not stand to imply shortcomings of either plot nor depth. Neither a well constructed plot, nor depth, prime something to become what is in current terminology a meme. The aspects of films that become references - "these aren't the droids you are looking for" and such - are often incidental, sometimes a bit cheeseball.

Furthermore furthermore, plot and depth are distinct. What you are calling depth seems to revolve around character development and specifically character development through dialogue and not through actions (N.b. Avatar isn't very dialogue-heavy in the first place.) Character development is not plot development either. All of these are distinct factors and you are conflating them.

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Excuse me? Are you insinuating that I'm harassing you?
I'm not going to call anyone a troll, but without your obvious fandom of Avatar, I would have assumed from the hackneyed and incendiary nature of your post and its presence in this context that you were looking for trouble and simply used the report button. So yes, there are insinuations. Not of harassing me, just general arson by posting this sort of material. Maybe you should take a step back for a second, take a look at where you are, reconsider your motives.

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Originally Posted by discounthobo159 View Post
When did I say JC isn't doing his job?
Your stated reasons for A2+ pessimism seem to revolve around slagging off A1 as poorly constructed/not maximally effective and the blame for that you seem to pin on the writer/director as if fault seen in your eyes is absolute and somehow not a figment of your opinion.

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Originally Posted by discounthobo159 View Post
Personally Biased? The only person that's personally biased is you - you even mentioned yourself how Avatar 'hit you like a few freight trains' or something, these sentiments are what block you from seeing the faults in Avatar.
The impact of Avatar on me is NOT in any way a "bias" - that impact arises from the success of the film at its intended purpose with a target of myself, hence my opinion reflecting that.

"Personally-biased" in my actual post, was attached to speculations of the popular failure of future films based on one's own negative opinion of elements in a past film. What I am getting at here is that simply because you had beef with XYZ aspects of Avatar does not imply that said beefs are as widely shared as you are trying, oh so hard, to push them as. I see clear red flags to the contrary - the pattern of popular success of Late Cameron films says that the masses like them and find them effective, entertaining, often worth multiple repeat viewings in the case of the last two.

Similarly, I... don't dislike Nolan films but my own opinion is clearly not in total agreement with their popular opinion and success history, and I have no need to be denialist about that like you apparently do about Avatar for reason unknown.
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  #38  
Old 10-23-2017, 03:18 AM
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Continuation.

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Originally Posted by discounthobo159 View Post
*Hits rock bottom* Erm... I can't dig anymore?

You: Get your drill out and dig deeper!! I'm telling you - If we dig deep enough (say another 20 miles down) you'll find the characters personality I was telling you about.

Me: But you can't go any further!

You: DIG!
That isn't bedrock you silly, it's hardpan, and you just aren't trying very hard at all. I even gave you a pickaxe and started you a hole to get chipping from. You threw it aside, and dismissed my few examples of depth and its reasonable interpretations as "just speculation".

The characters? Much of that's not buried. It's right in front of your face. Only... It's next to explosions, banshees, and floating mountains.

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Originally Posted by discounthobo159 View Post
Sounds like you need to get some dynamic range if you think the characters in Avatar are worth writing to home about.
Ooooooohhh salty. You should know that isn't very persuasive. Your opinion is not a fact and neither is mine. There is nothing concrete about an interpretation like that, and you especially do not tell me I flat-out shouldn't interpret or notice details at all, or try to argue that they aren't there because it is inconvenient for you that they are.

I am quite "well traveled" in this sort of thing, I am no bookworm but I have been through college and AP lit classes all the way back to high school and tediously picked apart many a novel and Shakespeare play in my day. Seen lots of movies before and since Avatar too; and Avatar was a storycraft breakthrough for me, a quantum jump in impact and connection. Say whatever you want, you cannot change that I care about those characters, when I do not give a flying fridge about so, SO many others. I am taken aback that with Avatar (at least post-popularity-era) people on the net either agree with me too closely to even catalyze discussion; or disagree so violently they desparately want to tell me my experience and opinion is wrong. Neither results in any further understanding by anyone.

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Originally Posted by discounthobo159 View Post
Maybe because Titanic is a historical film? Avatar isn't, Avatar was made for Hollywood and to make profit - heck James Cameron even raised ticket prices weeks after the release to maximise profit - at the very least it shouldn't be predictable and should excite audiences. Nice try though.
Titanic is not a historical film, it is ...possibly a docudrama, but I would call it more a regular drama with a historical setting. I cite it because, like Avatar, it has gone through a phase of being the biggest target around and thus "cool" to act negative toward, and one of its perennial bashes has been predictability. Yeah Sherlock, sure, that's some insight.

James Cameron does not set or raise ticket prices. Nice try yourself trying to cast him in a negative light with absolute nonsense like that.

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Originally Posted by discounthobo159 View Post
This is all pure speculation
It's a fairly obvious interpretation of symbolism and certain imagery in Avatar; if you take the time to google the background material I suggested you will see it is far from a straw grasp indeed. That isn't to say that it is "the correct" or only interpretation, but you asked about depth, so I provided a bit of an example. Apparently that got under your skin somehow. Why is that?

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Originally Posted by discounthobo159 View Post
which only die-hard fans like yourself would know. The rest of the general public won't
Of course the general public wouldn't have got as far as even that short and undeveloped summary version of just one of the bricks in the wall. On average, the public do not think very deeply, and do not dig much nor care much (at least consciously) of the subtext in works of fiction. You are stating the obvious.

However it is you who brought up and emphasized depth, claimed a shortcoming to exist there, and invited a counterargument.

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Originally Posted by discounthobo159 View Post
maybe JC should have made this more explicit in the film?
Oh he made a lot of the subtext so explicit in the film that it has been nitpicked for going too far to that end (I don't agree with those points of view either).

Making all depth obvious means catering to the lowest common denominator and fundamentally not dealing with anything overly abstract, challenging or thought-provoking at all. You didn't think that through.

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Originally Posted by discounthobo159 View Post
I hope you've started stocking up as well. I wouldn't get too cocky.
Cocky? No. It's just statistics of the speculation on both Cameron sequels and Cameron Megaprojects, which place your track record as straight zero (with absolute crushing defeats) in both cases. I'll be at Satu'li eating some good food from back home, and you will have crow.

Oh wait, Satu'li. Something about cultural impact and Disney and mega hype right now.

But point being - I am not worried about A2+ being massive hits or at least major successes. I am worried about them living up to A1 for us hardcore fans who are not just difficult to satisfy but received an experience difficult to even quantify from A1.

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Originally Posted by discounthobo159 View Post
My lord. Did you not read the previous post I just made?
I'm saying the same thing right now.

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Originally Posted by discounthobo159 View Post
Also Avatar came out 7 years ago - if I had a chip on my shoulder I would have forgotten by now
A chip on the shoulder is the only reason to care enough to spew negativity after this long. Not to mention the generic (and openly revisionist) "Cultural impact" deal, invoking that does nothing for your credibility as to being genuine and not having a chipped shoulder to whine about.

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Originally Posted by discounthobo159 View Post
- not like the film got really popular


I'm sorry. What? Say that again. I must have misheard. Is your planet also flat by the way?

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Originally Posted by discounthobo159 View Post
and started spawning loads of merchandise etc.
Merchandise popularity =/= film popularity

The metrics of Avatar's popularity are the sales of cinema tickets and the sales of copies of the film and in both of these Avatar is an unchallenged superlative.

It is entirely possible that Avatar is not by nature very merchandisable because there aren't many token aspects (example: that idiotically designed cute little droid BB-8 in the Disneywars flicks) that make good merch, and/or... those who Avatar appeals to tend not to be merch hogs, especially not for a film that runs counter to that strand.

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Originally Posted by discounthobo159 View Post
Don't know anyone whose heard of Avatar so much that they would need to sign up to a forum and start posting about it. ...the number of active members on tos...
1 film, almost 8 years ago, Avatar-Forums cratered and took down the majority of the discussion, and you did not read my post. Again, what single film (not franchise or ongoing universe) this old has a bunch of forum activity after this span of time without new content to spur discussion?

The fact of the matter is that Avatar is so old that to many it would be regarded as a "static" classic and not a current event. People are graduating college who were high school freshmen when it was released. I read some comments relating to Disney which began with "This movie was my childhood" and went on to express much stoke about there now being Avatar attractions. Made me feel like such an oldtimer and was such a shocking perspective.

Regardless. Forum traffic? They're coming soon. Like a rain that never ends, and the more Avatar material is out there, the more perennial it will get.
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  #39  
Old 10-23-2017, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by torukmakto4 View Post
I am quite "well traveled" in this sort of thing, I am no bookworm but I have been through college and AP lit classes all the way back to high school and tediously picked apart many a novel and Shakespeare play in my day. Seen lots of movies before and since Avatar too; and Avatar was a storycraft breakthrough for me, a quantum jump in impact and connection.
If your going to go down the rather arrogant: "I'm good at academics therefore my argument holds more validity then yours" route, then let me tell you, I too enjoy English Literature and Language - It's what I got my top grades in - A** (If it means anything - only 11% of the UK population achieved this) in both subjects on the newer harder GCSE spec that the government just brought in - I am also following English Lit through into A levels - So do not think that your talking to some "idiot" whose ideas and contributions to this thread are "beneath you". One thing English Literature teaches us is that yes, we are entitled to our own subjective opinion - however you need evidence to support why. Though it is pretty obvious our little "comment war" (for lack of a better term) will go nowhere as we obviously disagree on the fundamentals of what our individual Avatar experience was/is. But rather then argue over this, aren't you interested on why we view the film on such "polar" opposites? A different view point is good. You don't have to be a super-fan in order to join a forum - there might be an aspect of a film which you appreciate but you don't quite click with the rest. This is not a bad thing. It should be an opportunity for fans who think otherwise to share their knowledge and have a balanced discussion. Instead with each of my comments you have torn apart each and every sentence without properly weighting them first - rather more: Oh! That's not what I think - Down with this impostor!!

Quote:
I'm not going to call anyone a troll, but without your obvious fandom of Avatar, I would have assumed from the hackneyed and incendiary nature of your post and its presence in this context that you were looking for trouble and simply used the report button. So yes, there are insinuations. Not of harassing me, just general arson by posting this sort of material. Maybe you should take a step back for a second, take a look at where you are, reconsider your motives.
Your not going to call anyone a troll - but you will allude so? Firstly you mustn't have many experiences with trolls then (go to the 'Join the Navi' thread which lurks around here if you want to see what a troll is) - trolls spew out incoherent and deliberately provoking responses to create a diatribe. My intention was not such with this thread - though I do enjoy debates - that doesn't make a troll. Just makes me a possibly more "interesting" member to interact with - as your responses are challenged rather then a never ending soppy exchange where your beliefs are never changed or expanded and no one learns anything new.

Secondly you've not been here long enough to make that judgement, I have contributed and made several threads on this forum - which happen to be less cynical then this one - not that one should necessarily have to "prove" themselves before they make any negative/opposing judgement on Avatar. I already have considered my motives - I knew this thread would spice up things a bit*** (not in a troll/sh*t stirrer kind of way) as it gets people thinking and opening up a bit more on saying things that are rather "taboo" to say on a fan forum (where everything apparently has to be all milk and honey) - just look at Dr. Navi's post, he likes the film but admits he doesn't think it has an endless re-watching factor. *** Please do not skew what I've just said out of context.

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The impact of Avatar on me is NOT in any way a "bias" - that impact arises from the success of the film at its intended purpose with a target of myself, hence my opinion reflecting that.
It is. Everyone's opinion is a personal bias.
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  #40  
Old 10-23-2017, 09:43 PM
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If your going to go down the rather arrogant: "I'm good at academics therefore my argument holds more validity then yours" route
Not my point at all, rather I felt the same sentiment from you.

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Originally Posted by discounthobo159 View Post
...teaches us is that yes, we are entitled to our own subjective opinion - however you need evidence to support why.
Exactly my point in many of my responses to your comments, which contain many unsupported claims and vague ideas of Avatar's public perception that cannot BE supported, tested or measured.

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Originally Posted by discounthobo159 View Post
Though it is pretty obvious our little "comment war" (for lack of a better term) will go nowhere as we obviously disagree on the fundamentals of what our individual Avatar experience was/is.
I'm glad you realize that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by discounthobo159 View Post
But rather then argue over this, aren't you interested on why we view the film on such "polar" opposites?
Yes I am, but are you interested in discussing that, or are you interested in telling me my opinion and perception are Wrong and trying to laugh me off (=logical fallacy) because I don't agree with many of your points? That is mostly what you have done. But it is bland! Maybe you need more dynamic range yourself! This element is not good because.... it's not good! Those details you pointed out aren't there! LOL... No, that's not how it works.

At least I have provided some examples, i.e. Selfridge characterization, for why I think what I do, and not what you do.

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Originally Posted by discounthobo159 View Post
A different view point is good. You don't have to be a super-fan in order to join a forum - there might be an aspect of a film which you appreciate but you don't quite click with the rest. This is not a bad thing. It should be an opportunity for fans who think otherwise to share their knowledge and have a balanced discussion. Instead with each of my comments you have torn apart each and every sentence without properly weighting them first - rather more: Oh! That's not what I think - Down with this impostor!! ...My intention was not such with this thread - though I do enjoy debates ...Just makes me a possibly more "interesting" member to interact with - as your responses are challenged rather then a never ending soppy exchange where your beliefs are never changed or expanded and no one learns anything new.
You are coming off as a troublemaker to me because the character of your argument, not to mention the letter of your argument, is exactly that of the "backlash" detractors - incendiary, unoriginal, and lacking support.

If you were a bit more respectful and a bit more insightful and didn't say more or less 'I think it was bland, I think it was predictable, I think it lacks depth, I think it doesn't have "cultural impact", I think JC better "bring more to the table"', etc. (all hyperbolic and all rather vacuous on their own) then you would be more likely to have a proper discussion. Telling people to "not argue" and "face it, my points are right" early on doesn't help anything. Seems you are just being intentionally sharp as much as possible. That is not the right way to provoke a discussion, and a good way to make people angry. You want a discussion, tone down the hyperbole and the accusatory tone and be more reasonable.

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Originally Posted by discounthobo159 View Post
Secondly you've not been here long enough to make that judgement
My account on TOS admittedly hasn't, but that is because I only joined after AF went south. Also I have lurked everything Avatar including TOS since forever. In general I am quiet, in real life and online. What you see here is that someone taking shots at the great mother sure will draw my attention.

Quote:
Originally Posted by discounthobo159 View Post
not that one should necessarily have to "prove" themselves before they make any negative/opposing judgement on Avatar.
It isn't about proof, it is about toxicity. If that is all a user does, they don't belong here.

On the internet there is by far enough negativity about anything and everything; certainly about Avatar, and there are appropriate venues to vent such negativity. Fan forums are not those venues. That is not their purpose. They are created partially to exclude it, collect people with shared views and experiences and provide somewhere to be positive without the risk of a firefight breaking out.

This thread is toxic. There is nothing it stands to "construct" and no discussion it stands to spark other than this one - whose only redeeming end could be mutual understanding between viewpoints, a very tangential and unimportant matter to the purpose of the community existing which is not to stoke dissent and drive wedges but to unite us on an experience we share at least some aspect of, including you.

A long time ago I regularly ventured out into the wastelands of places like the imdb forums (RIPieces, good riddance!!) and argued my positions with detractors of Avatar. Did it for years. I'm no stranger to it, and I know all too well that it is poison. I walked away from it, because it certainly wasn't doing me any good; let alone achieving anything greater.

I don't want to see that poison here because it flat out counters the purpose of this place. Avatar is a meditative, pure thing in people's lives and chaos and anger ought to be nowhere near it, screw speculation. I postponed an Avatar viewing last night because I had too much residual of that chaos on my mind from dealing with this thread to do a proper distraction-free run.
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  #41  
Old 10-23-2017, 10:36 PM
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Seems you are just being intentionally sharp as much as possible. That is not the right way to provoke a discussion, and a good way to make people angry. You want a discussion, tone down the hyperbole and the accusatory tone and be more reasonable.
^ This is what irritates me. In all your responses you make these snide (but very subtle) jabs; alluding I'm a troll, apparently I'm being intentionally sharp? All because I disagree with what you think? I do not purposefully set out to manipulate anyone into anger (or whatever the hell kinda existential crisis your going through in this oh so horrible thread) - these are my opinions - just because they clash with yours doesn't mean I'm "trying to start a fight" or makes me a troll. My god. Its like shouting at a brick wall. If your this sensitive to even the mildest of criticism to Avatar then how the hell do you deal with *real trolls*? Or the people who claim Avatar is about bestiality?

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It isn't about proof, it is about toxicity. If that is all a user does, they don't belong here.
This is what I mean when I mentioned the nasty little jabs you post in your comments. So your now alluding that I should pack off because I made a speculative post on the future of Avatar? I wrote this in a previous comment but it appears you never read it: Just because I post criticisms of a film doesn't mean I hate the film- means I gave it thought - didn't toss it away - means there was an aspect that I liked - but with the knowledge of a second film, gives me a chance to let other people know how I think it could have been better.

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Fan forums are not those venues. That is not their purpose. They are created partially to exclude it, collect people with shared views and experiences and provide somewhere to be positive without the risk of a firefight breaking out.
No, fan sites aren't supposed to be hate clubs. Agreed. Now why did you mention this? Whose the hater? I check for new posts almost daily and I haven't seen any toxic hate being posted? As far as I know everyone on this site shares the same view: We all like Avatar. But is it the fact that our liking for this film is in differing degrees? Because if that's your problem and that's what you define as a "hater" "troll" then I'd hide away quickly, before and after, the sequels come out because your not going to be able to watch a "distraction free run through" of Avatar in a while.

*sigh*


Quote:
This thread is toxic. There is nothing it stands to "construct" and no discussion it stands to spark other than this one
I'm guessing you were the one who was p̶a̶t̶h̶e̶t̶i̶c̶ kind enough to vote the thread one star. This thread is not toxic and doesn't necessarily have to dwell on what might fail but rather what may not as counter evidence that it won't. This is something I've noticed about the Avatar community - there's a small few but very vocal minority who are overtly sensitive to the slightest criticism - Can't remember if it was AF or TOS but there was a thread on how someone almost beat up their friend because after the viewing they said they didn't like it very much - hate to say it but someone in this thread is almost veering into this kind of psycho fan territory. I don't know what I've said that's triggered you so much, that's apparently toxic? Yes I think some of the characters are a bit "tropey"/2D (mainly the RDA characters - makes it too obvious whose the bad guy and the good guy, and gives no real challenge to the audience), yes I said the plot was a bit bland - but I appreciated the deleted scenes (which unfortunately weren't rendered) - which showed the ritual of Jake finding his spirit animal etc. - however this is pretty much all I've said. Be real. There are worse things someone could say if all they really wanted was trouble.
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I postponed an Avatar viewing last night because I had too much residual of that chaos on my mind from dealing with this thread to do a proper distraction-free run.
... Is this a joke?

Oh you poor thing, have a cookie!
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Last edited by discounthobo159; 10-23-2017 at 10:56 PM.
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  #42  
Old 10-24-2017, 06:29 AM
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This thread is awesome.
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  #43  
Old 10-24-2017, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Ja'k Dawsiin View Post
agree with you, Wind, and may i point out that these members have full cups and cannot See. my love and devotion to this film, it's world, it's themes and messages, and the magnificent People, are not dictated by anything from our world nor effected by it. my consciousness is somewhere out there in the universe, striving for moment of contact with Eywa, so i can show her there are reasons to help Gaia and the enlightened of us. my cup is not full.
Oh, I know I don't expect to make any headway with them, I just kind of roll my eyes when I see thread titles "Will Avatar 2 be a failure?" and when I hear the arguements that us fans arn't accepting people with other opinions, I personally have no issue with other opinions than I do, but I do question the motives of people that don't like something or the message that something has, going into an establishment that caters to fans of that thing( basically its the digital equivelent of going into a bar that caters to soccer fans(football for those outside the US) and then trying to "discuss" with the patrons why soccer isn't that great in their opinion, and then trying to say that the patrons are intolerant of free speech when they don't find their "discussion" agreeable, to me it becomes glaringly clear, I think that things would go much smoother if people followed the rule of don't do anything on the net that you wouldn't do in real life, but I am well aware that insn't going to happen. but I will always fly with you ma Ja'k, and all my Avatar eylan!
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  #44  
Old 10-30-2017, 01:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Wind12 View Post
Oh, I know I don't expect to make any headway with them, I just kind of roll my eyes when I see thread titles "Will Avatar 2 be a failure?" and when I hear the arguements that us fans arn't accepting people with other opinions, I personally have no issue with other opinions than I do, but I do question the motives of people that don't like something or the message that something has, going into an establishment that caters to fans of that thing( basically its the digital equivelent of going into a bar that caters to soccer fans(football for those outside the US) and then trying to "discuss" with the patrons why soccer isn't that great in their opinion, and then trying to say that the patrons are intolerant of free speech when they don't find their "discussion" agreeable, to me it becomes glaringly clear, I think that things would go much smoother if people followed the rule of don't do anything on the net that you wouldn't do in real life, but I am well aware that insn't going to happen. but I will always fly with you ma Ja'k, and all my Avatar eylan!

agreed, and i will fly with you anytime, brother!
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