Walas00 - Adjectives Lesson [Copy From IRC]

[Mune]

I managed to log the entire lesson, [and corrected spelling mistakes, I'm THAT awesome] Haha joking, but here's the key.

Walas00 - Teacher - Light Blue

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Questions - Students - Green

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Left in-comments- Students - Light Pink

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BEGINNING OF LESSON - ADJECTIVES

<Walas00> This won't take too long.
<Walas00> I've chosen a short subject to discuss - adjectives.
<Walas00> They're already covered in a lesson of mine on ToS, but it's always better to ... you know, discuss it.
<Walas00> An adjective is a word used to describe something, to show it's attribute
<Walas00> There are two basic ways to use adjectives in English. (There might be more I guess...)
<Walas00> So, let's make an example.
<Walas00> We see a river that is pretty long, and you want to tell someone what you saw.
<Walas00> You could say:
<Walas00> "I saw a long river." - or - "I saw a river which was long."
<Walas00> The first sentence uses an attribute.
<Walas00> I saw a long river- The river's main attribute is that it's long.
<Walas00> The second one is a typical adjective usage, "a river is long" - what is what.
<Walas00> Let's cover the typical usage first, since it's the easiest one to remember.
<Walas00> "A long river" would be:
<Walas00> Kilvan ngim lu
<Walas00> "river" "long" "to be"
<Walas00> Translates very simply into English.
<Walas00> A river is long (since we can move the words around, we could say "kilvan lu ngim", or whatever. The receiver will definitely understand the message.)
<Walas00> It is logical when you think about it, since we use that kind of construction all the time
<Walas00> "The weather is nice", "This food is yummy", "You are nice"
<Walas00> Object - attribute - "to be"
<Walas00> Adjective^
<Walas00> Since attributes are a bit different... let's discuss them now
<Walas00> The first example sentence was "A long river" (typical was "A river is long")
<Walas00> As I've said, "long" is "river"'s main attribute, and we want to say something more about "a long river" (a sentence "a river is long" is a complete sentence, it would be hard to put more information in it)
<Walas00> We didn't need any prefixes or suffixes with the typical usage, but with attributes we will use a simple prefix "-a-"
<Walas00> We put this little particle in the adjective. (the describing word - here: long)
<Walas00> The important thing to note here is: We put it on the side closest to the noun it's describing.
<Walas00> So it would look like this:
<Walas00> Noun a-adjective , and adjective-a noun
<Walas00> Using the example above:
<Walas00> "A long river"
<Walas00> Kilvan angim
<Walas00> Kilvan a-ngim
<Walas00> "river" ATTRIBUTE-"long"
<Wallflower> Whats the difference?
<Wallflower> The long river verses a LONG river?
<Wallflower> Why a need for two spellings /usages in the attribute form?
<Walas00> Well, I guess it depends on what do you want to say.
<Walas00> "The river that is long is now dry" vs "The long river is now dry"
<Walas00> It's up to you Wallflower which construction will you use, just keep in mind that the receiver will have to understand the message.
<Walas00> That's the most important goal-
<Walas00> The difference grammaticly is:
<Walas00> Typical "kilvan ngim lu" (a river is long) - attribute "kilvan angim" (a long river)
<@HumanNoMore> So there's no actual specific time when you have to use it one way?
<Walas00> Not really-
<Walas00> Hmm, let's say we'd like to describe someone.
<Walas00> "You are nice"
<Walas00> Nga siltsan lu
<Walas00> We use the typical construction here, why?
<Walas00> Nga asiltsan - That would simply mean "a nice you"
<Walas00> And that doesn't make much sense
<mikkowilson> ..But we wnt to speak directly to them?
<mikkowilson> ..Instead of just describing them?
<mikkowilson> ..But we wnt to speak directly to them?
<mikkowilson> ..Instead of just describing them?
<@HumanNoMore> If you're describing them, then it would be (person) a-siltsan, I think
<@HumanNoMore> Nga siltsan lu would be telling someone they are.
<Walas00> Yeah, that would be "You are nice", and that's correct.
<Walas00> Since we're actually saying, that "you are nice", it's a fact.
<Walas00> "lu" - to be <- that's the word that will help you with both constructions
<Walas00> "lu" - is/are <- in this case
<Walas00> "He is nice"
<Walas00> Po siltsan lu
<Walas00> "A nice he dies"
<Walas00> Po asiltsan terkup
<Wallflower> Why would you say a nice he dies?
<Walas00> In the second sentence we want to concentrate on the fact that a person dies
<Walas00> it's just an example
<Walas00> we don't want to actually say that a person IS nice (lack of "lu")
<mikkowilson>
<Walas00> Here's another example
<Walas00> "My white socks are too big"
<Walas00> "White" is an attribute for "socks"
<Walas00> "My socks are white" - (are - "lu")
<@HumanNoMore> I don't know Na'vi words for white or socks
<@HumanNoMore> Don't know if they have a word for socks hahaha
<Walas00> It's not for translation, lol.
<Walas00> It's just an example to point differences between attributes and the typical usage.
<Walas00> So yeah, if you want to say that something is nice/bad/cool/awesome, you want to use "lu" there, since something IS nice/bad/etc.
<mikkowilson> Oeru atana socks?
<mikkowilson> Oeru atana socks lu?
<Walas00> You don't use "lu" with attributes "-a-"
<mikkowilson> Oeru tanaa socks lu?
<mikkowilson> FAIL.
<Walas00> "You are nice"
<mikkowilson> Oeru atan socks lu?
<Walas00> According to your method.
<Walas00> "Nga asiltsan lu" - "A nice you are ..."
<@HumanNoMore> Doesn't atan mean light?
<@HumanNoMore>
<mikkowilson> Oeru atan [socks] lu
<Wallflower> Can we get back to the topic, I will never need to say socks.
<mikkowilson> Yes it does .. closes to "white" I could find
<Walas00> Anyway, let's continue.
<Walas00> Let's move to the famous prefix le-
<Walas00> You might have seen it with "leNa'vi"
<Walas00> le- basicaly turns a noun into an adjective
<@HumanNoMore> Ah... I wondered how that worked
<@HumanNoMore> Like leNa'vi
<Walas00> A good example:
<Walas00> "Poland language" -> with le- before Poland : "Polish language"
<mikkowilson> Aha!
<Walas00> Language le-Poland
<Walas00> Same with all other nouns
<Walas00> Why leNa'vi ?
<Walas00> Because it's "the Na'vi language":
<@HumanNoMore> So leskxawng = how most people act?
<Walas00> Li'fya leNa'vi
<Walas00> "Language" ADJ-"the People"
<Walas00> The people-ish language.
<Walas00> Leskxawng - Idiotish.
<Walas00> Yeah.

[Mune]

<mikkowilson> Nice.
<Walas00> Again let's get back to the attributes and adjectives.
<Walas00> Attribute - stands for describing what the object is like, without concentrating on that within the sentence (we can continue the sentence, for example: "A cute cat walked past my door")
<@HumanNoMore> Hehe
<Walas00> Typical construction - used when whole sentence is focused on describing something (the sentence can't be continued so easily without further language knowledge : "A cat is cute" (the information about that the cat walked past my door can't be put here, since it would all become chaotic))
<mikkowilson> Sevìna palulukan tìran oe [door] - ? (Just practising)
<Walas00> Tute asiltsan terkup lu - A nice person is dead
<Walas00> Tute siltsan lu - A person is nice (can't add anywhere here the info that the person is actually dead)
<Walas00> It's all just grammatic examples of what I mean.
<Walas00> So yeah... Let's sum it all up.
<Walas00> Saying good night, for example.
<Walas00> "May to you be a good night"
<Walas00> We can grab our knowledge from the "asking for well being" sentence.
<Walas00> We will use the dative suffix -ru (Giving something to someone)
<Walas00> Ngaru lu txon asiltsan.
<Walas00> You-DAT to.be night ATTR-nice
<Walas00> To you, may be, a nice night.
<Walas00> Why did we use attribute here? Because we want to focus on saying goodbye, instead of wishing someone a night that is nice.
<Wallflower> But we never said goodbye?!
<Wallflower> The focus still is on the nice night.
<Walas00> Kiyevame is goodbye.
<Wallflower> Oh.
<Walas00> Ngaru lu txon asiltsan is goodnight.
<Walas00> Txon - Night.
<mikkowilson> How about "goodbye to you; have a good night"?
<Wallflower> Can i try?!
<Walas00> Go ahead Wallflower
<Wallflower> kiyevame lu, (dont know have) txon asiltsan ?
<Wallflower> I used 'nice' instead of 'good'.
<Wallflower> I think I failed.
<Mune> To 'have' something, isn't it 'yä' on the end of the noun?
<Mune> To show possession?
<Walas00> Well first of all you've forgot to mention who are you refering to.
<Wallflower> OHH
<mikkowilson> "kìyevame ngaru, sìltsana txon ngahu"?
<Walas00> -ya is for posession, yes, but -ru (dative) is to mention that something is given to someone, as in "Ngaru lu fpom" - You have well being (TO YOU is well being)
<Wallflower> Kiyevame ngaru lu (?)
<Walas00> "Goodbye to you, may a nice night be with you", I like that.
<Walas00> Hmm Wallflower, pretty good, but without the "lu" part.
<Wallflower> Oh yeah, lu is for 'are'.
<Walas00> Oh wait.
<mikkowilson> "goodby to-you be" Sounds silly, yeah.
<Walas00> Ahh wait wait wait
<Walas00> WallFlower might be right.
<Walas00> "Ngaru lu fpom srak?"
<Walas00> There is a "lu" used with dative
<Walas00> So
<Walas00> "Kiyevame ngaru lu" <- that's correct
<Wallflower> Yay!
<mikkowilson> Well done.
<Walas00> Yeah, mikkowilson, "lu" must be put there.
<Walas00> But I have to admin, you're making good progress mikkowilson.
<Walas00> You too, Wallflower.
<Wallflower> It takes me a while
<Walas00> Let's see mikkowilson.
<mikkowilson> Uh oh.
<Walas00> "To you may BE goodbyes"
<Walas00> BE
<Walas00> ^
<mikkowilson> No, lets See Walas00
<Walas00> to.be
<Walas00> Hehe
<Walas00> To.be is lu
<Walas00> To you may BE goodbyes
<Walas00> Ngaru LU Kiyevame
<Walas00> Yeah, that's definately correct, since now we could combine "lu" into past and future tenses, but that's way ahead of us.
<Walas00>
<Walas00> There is sooooo much stuff here.
<Walas00> Grammatical traps.
<Wallflower> Lesson over...?
<Walas00> Well- I can give you a small bonus if you want.
<Wallflower> Yes yes bonus
<Walas00> xD I love my students
<mikkowilson> kä kä kä!
<Walas00> hahah
<Wallflower> Awww
<Wallflower> They love you too!
<mikkowilson> (kä = go)
<mikkowilson> *group hug*
<Walas00> Alright, with adjectives, and all that "nice" words... aaw Wallflower
<Walas00> Anyway, we've used a lot of "nice" here
<Walas00> What if we wanted to say that we feel nice ?
<Wallflower> Oel siltsan lu? (?)
<Walas00> We have the adjective, and we know how to say "I"
<Walas00> That would mean "I am nice"
<Wallflower> Thats we are nice? or were nice?
<mikkowilson> Oel sìltsan lelu? (?)
<Walas00> Anyway... back on topic.
<Walas00> Where did you get <el> from mikkowilson?
<mikkowilson> le = moun to adjective...
<Walas00> We'll be done soon here.
<Walas00> Ok, let's finish this before midnight here...
<Walas00> We will use verb "to feel" when we want to say about how we feel.
<Walas00> "I feel nice"
<Walas00> Oe 'efu siltsan.
<Walas00> No prefixes or anything, works like typical construction, but instead of "lu" we use a different adjective (description)
<Walas00> Oe lu siltsan.
<Walas00> Oe 'efu siltsan.
<mikkowilson> Aaaaah.
<Walas00> So yeah, you can change the verb.
<Walas00> Here's a nice sentence to translate.
<mikkowilson> Oe 'efu ketxen.

[Mune]

<Walas00> "To you may be a nice death"
<Walas00> Try to translate it Mikkowilson.

-SHORT PAUSE- [Hehehe]

<Walas00> Remember that there's BE in that sentence
<Walas00> And think about -ru in "Ngaru lu fpom" (to you may be well being)
<mikkowilson> Ngaru lu sìltsana terkup
<Walas00> \m/ Correct!
<mikkowilson> Whoo!
<Walas00> Good, good
<Walas00> That's great
<mikkowilson> You rock Walas00
<Walas00> If you'll accidentally remember siltsan, 'efu, or anything from this, you might want to remember a simple word
<Walas00> nitram - happy
<Walas00> Hehe, thanks xD
<Walas00> Nitram - it's like nitro, but tram
<mikkowilson> Nitram huh .. Me likey.
<Mune> Lesson concluded?
<Mune>
<Walas00> I guess
<Walas00> *bell*
<Walas00> Lesson lasted for 55 minutes, EOT

LESSON ENDS HERE

[Walas00]

* certified valid

[Txum_kali'weya]

is all this going into the book/thing you are making?

[Walas00]

I think so. Not just raw IRC logs of course...
I've got some ideas how to put explanations of things, just got to test them.

[KalaKuival]

Originally Posted by Walas00

<Wallflower> Kiyevame ngaru lu (?)
<Walas00> "Goodbye to you, may a nice night be with you", I like that.
<Walas00> Hmm Wallflower, pretty good, but without the "lu" part.
<Wallflower> Oh yeah, lu is for 'are'.
<Walas00> Oh wait.
<mikkowilson> "goodby to-you be" Sounds silly, yeah.
<Walas00> Ahh wait wait wait
<Walas00> WallFlower might be right.
<Walas00> "Ngaru lu fpom srak?"
<Walas00> There is a "lu" used with dative
<Walas00> So
<Walas00> "Kiyevame ngaru lu" <- that's correct

Okay, let me ask about this

Kiyevame ngaru lu... I know Kiyevame is good bye, but actually it directly translates to "may (we) see soon" (a wish for future).

So i think you can't say "May we see soon to-you is"... it's messy. Also, since it's possible to say kiyevame trray, kiyevame ye'rin and all kinds of other forms, I think "Kiyevame ngaru lu" isn't correct.

I believe it's like the same that we won't say "Eywa ngahu ngaru lu", just makes no sense. Oeru tiyawr srak?

[Human No More]

Nice

[Walas00]

Hmm never examined the origin of word "Kiyevame". You might be right.

[Walas00]

Allright, I've tried to analyze the word Kiyevame @ KalaKuival

Kìyevame (root word Kame - to See) - K<ìy><iv>ame - not sure, but appearantly "i" changed into "e" for some reason.

<ìy> - close future (verb tense)
<iv> - imperative mood (eg. "See you soon" (an event you wish to happen), "See you
soon", "Catch you at dinner")

As a conclusion, Kìyevame itself means "see [someone] in close future" (Kìyame - "to see in close future").

See you in close future - Oe-l Nga-ti K<ìy><iv>ame
Works same as Oe-l Nga-ti Kam<ei>e
just different particles used...

What'cha think?

[Fosus]

Originally Posted by Walas00

Kìyevame (root word Kame - to See) - K<ìy><iv>ame - not sure, but appearantly "i" changed into "e" for some reason.

According to Na'vi in a Nutshell document at Learnnavi.org:

[Walas00]

That explains it.
I still would argue about the translation, since "Kiyevame" itself doesnt mention who may be seeing who in the future...

[KalaKuival]

Well, you do say it to someone... And i think it applies to the ones who you talk to

[Walas00]

What if you'd like to say that "You'll be seeing him soon" ?

Ngal Poti Kiyevame

Kiyevame itself is just a verb, it needs pronouns to work... at least...