Toruk Evolution

[Alyara]

Here's my question cuz for some reason my brain has been on noob mode for almost like a week now, due to stress and other things:

IS the Toruk the evolutionary higher-up of an Ikran, or are they considered two different species?

[Human No More]

They're two different species, but most likely share a similar ancestry (6 limbed, with the rear wings, and the similar head structure and 2 sets of eyes)

[Alyara]

hmm i wonder at what point in the ancestral family toruk thought "ya know i need to be a lil bigger and scarier so i can eat my brother" o.0

[Human No More]

Evoluition isn't a conscious effort like that, it's a divergent thing. Some proto-ikran/toruk became more focused on adaptations that allowed them to be a large predator, while others didn't and over time, the divergence along with different secondary characteristics and the visible emergence of mutation causes them to become separate species.

[Alyara]

Originally Posted by Human No More

Evoluition isn't a conscious effort like that, it's a divergent thing.

I know that......I was trying to be funny

........fail......

[ZenitYerkes]

Toruk is not a Pokemon :/

But I think it'd be the same as comparing a lion and a cat. They might have shared a common ancestor, but then evolved differently (Toruk became a hostile solo hunter due to more extreme conditions perhaps)

[madman]

Originally Posted by Alyara

I know that......I was trying to be funny

........fail......

fail at funny? Never!!

[Devourment]

God did it.™

No seriously, they probably both evolved from some sort of common ancestor, which of course we don't know about, because I doubt the RDA cares about fossils.

[Woodsprite]

I'm sure the toruk and the ikran can still technically breed, though. Different species doesn't necessarily mean they have drastically different DNA. A great dane and a chihuahua can also (surprisingly) breed. There'd be a few mechanical problems, sure, but they aren't so drastically diverse DNA-wise that they couldn't produce offspring. Same exists probably with the toruk and ikran.

[Alyara]

that makes me wonder what a toruk/ikran hybrid would look like

[Raiden]

Originally Posted by Woodsprite

I'm sure the toruk and the ikran can still technically breed, though. Different species doesn't necessarily mean they have drastically different DNA. A great dane and a chihuahua can also (surprisingly) breed. There'd be a few mechanical problems, sure, but they aren't so drastically diverse DNA-wise that they couldn't produce offspring. Same exists probably with the toruk and ikran.

It's not that simple.

Dogs are very closely related to each other; they were brought about by humans when humans discovered artificial selection. Animals that are allowed to speciate under normal timeframes (tens of thousands of years for even the smallest visible changes in large populations of verebrates). Also, the mechanical reproduction of mammals and reptiles is very different. I'm not about to write it here in detail, because.....welll......yeah.

Toruk and Ikran were produced by natural selection, much like Geckos and Iguanas. Not only does this drastially reduce the chances of interbreeding being successful genetically, but Geckos and Iguanas cannot interbreed, because it is very difficult mechanically compared to a big dog and a little dog (like I said, the mechanics of reptile reproduction are far different). Combine that with the great difference in size, and it really wouldn't work. Also, most species of reptiles

I think it's also important to bring up that while the act of mating is very similar in all mammals, turtles, crocodiles, lizards, and snakes all have different ways of doing it, and within lizards and snakes there are even more different ways that they do it.

For example, two lizards within the same family, Agamidae, the Chinese Water Dragon and the Bearded Dragon (two lizards commonly kepts as pets) cannot interbreed (iirc). If one looks at Toruk and Ikran, they both have basic similarities that probably resulted from a common ancestor, but they probably are from different families (just an assumption based on appearance, size, and behavior). If many reptiles from the same family cannot interbreed, how would two reptiles from different families interbreed?

I guess it's not truly impossible, but you would need to attempt it in a lab with cell samples. And let not think about how hard it would be to get those samples.

[rasomaso]

Toruk mating with it's food? C'mon I guess it's possible but very unlikely that they would produce some Ikran 2.0
Anyway survival guide says they are geneticaly related, though I think that Toruk isn't some kind of advanced technology. Even if Ikrans later evolved in Toruk, what would they eat? They are different species imo.

I excel at not adding anything valuable to the debate.

[Alyara]

thank you for adding lol

valid point tho

[Fkeu'itan]

Hmm that is quite an interesting question... What would an interbred Toruk/Ikran look like...

*Wonders*

[Alyara]

Ikran->Velociraptor
Toruk->T-rex

I can see where thats get a lil tricky if they mated, but Im assuming that maybe they dont mate after all due to my current thinking. The way the film portrayed it, besides the inital one that Jake rode (OOHA!), the Na'vi made it seem (at least in my eyes) that a Toruk is not a common species to come across, but that they are lurking out there.

To me that makes it look like that the Toruk population isnt very high (at least nowhere near half of the Ikran population). Since Ikran seems to be its main food supply and there is a vast amount flying high above the Pandorean landscape, there's not alot of Toruk chowing down on these less evolved critters. The basic anatomy is very similar tho, but since the Na'vi dont seem to make mention of a hybrid, I believe there most likely hasn't been one. Cuz that seems like the kind of thing that you would notice.

I do agree with everyone else that the two most likely have a common ancestor, due to the anatomy. This just makes me wonder what the Toruk evolved from and what kind of conditions caused it to evolve to a point where it could feast on a family member. Food supplies must have dwindled off at one point, that's the only reason at the moment that I can come up with for becoming a sub species of the same family and then eating your brother.

Anyways, feel free to add or correct my observation. ^^