Loyalty To One's Species?

[Tsyal Makto]

How important is loyalty to one's species? Do you believe it is immoral to do something like Jake did? Would it be immoral for us to give up our Earth lives if we were given the chance?

I say no, because even if we have an obligation to be loyal to our species, our obligation to be loyal to our hearts and souls supersedes it. If my heart and soul call me to Pandora, then that's where I go.

[Isard]

Well then your species loyalties lie elsewhere. You're never really trapped within a faction.

[Na'vi_supporter]

Do you believe it is immoral to do something like Jake did?

No. I think that morality should be higher principle, common for all intelligent sentient beings. It stands above race, species and thus I think Jake did right thing.

[Advent]

Your loyalty is to your heart, mind, and soul. Jake knew that, Quaritch knew that, even Tsu'tey knew that.
The difficult choice is choosing between them. However, the loyalty that Jake had is MUCH more powerful than loyalty to race.
Loyalty to Neytiri. The oldest loyalty known to human kind.

[Patrice Maire]

Loyalty is a subjective thing, whether to a species, team, school, or your family.
Loyalty is a man made concept because we are a thinking, emotional people. Animals that do not have higher thought process don't have 'loyalty' they only have self preservation and mating instincts. Loyalty, religion, politics are all man made concepts, lines on a page that are easily changed to suit whoever has the power.
There are several instances in other movies and stories where the individual must turn their back on their former life in order to follow their heart. We are unique in this and it should be applauded rather than reviled. Our emotions and personal convictions have a higher priority in our mind than any paper we sign or pledge we make.

Going to tread dangerous ground here but take it for the debate that it is.
'Traitor' is in the same category (personally) as 'heretic'.
It only matters to the person uttering it, not the person that has made the choice to follow their heart. We all have a 'moral compass' that tells us what truly matters. If a soldier is given an order the conflicts with his personal convictions of what is right, he has the ability to ignore that order or countermand it.
A quote from another military character from a different world:

"I only really understand three words. Loyalty. Duty. Honor. If I did it your way, then one of those would have to go and the other two would become meaningless." (Captain Lochley from Babylon 5)

But that isn't necessarily true, they would take on a new meaning based on her decision. Jake had all three of those as well and because his loyalty shifted so did his duty and honor to those people and his decision to save them.
With every decision your life takes on new meaning, look for it and see if that decision is the correct one for your heart.

[Human No More]

I don't owe humanity any loyalty, because I've never got anything, and truthfully, it's not how I SHOULD have been.

[Advent]

Hmm. No offense at all, but I'm not a fan of no-human behavior.

Bear in mind we made Avatar. Bear in mind it was Humanity who went through the Nomadic stage first. Bear in mind we are actually trying to do something about our problems.

Even if Neytiri was on the other side, I know who I'd stand for. And it ain't on an Ikran.

[Eltu]

My only loyalty lies with myself. I do not hate humanity, but I am not loyal to humanity itself either.

To reply to what Advent said:

Bear in mind we made Avatar.

No we did not. Avatar, like everything, already exists and has always done so. We simply discovered it for ourselves.

Bear in mind it was Humanity who went through the Nomadic stage first.

And that is a good thing... how? Since we left our nomadic lives things have only been worse and worse, both for ourselves and for Earth.

Bear in mind we are actually trying to do something about our problems.

Problems we caused ourselves. If we had never caused them, we would not have to do something about them.


I see no reason to show loyalty to a species who are destroying all I stand for.

[Advent]

Originally Posted by Eltu

My only loyalty lies with myself. I do not hate humanity, but I am not loyal to humanity itself either.

To reply to what Advent said:

No we did not. Avatar, like everything, already exists and has always done so. We simply discovered it for ourselves.


And that is a good thing... how? Since we left our nomadic lives things have only been worse and worse, both for ourselves and for Earth.


Problems we caused ourselves. If we had never caused them, we would not have to do something about them.


I see no reason to show loyalty to a species who are destroying all I stand for.

Correction. We did make Avatar. The revolution of a new way of living and thinking existed before it. Avatar was the key.

And sure. We left the nomadic times. But you have to be serious.
EVERYONE'S going to grow up someday. Whether for better or worse.

And yes. We made these problems. We have scarred Earth. But no one's perfect. You can not POSSIBLY say to me you have not committed a sin in your entire life. But apparently, Na'vis are perfect.

[Eltu]

The Na'vi are not perfect either - and I do not show any loyalty towards the Na'vi. They are quite intangible, so that would have no point.

Of course no one's perfect, but that does not change my opinion - I see no reason to show loyalty to humanity.

Present me ONE good reason.

[Fkeu 'Awpo]

So if the opportunity arose, you'd betray us all?

[Eltu]

I still show loyalty to individuals - I would not betray any of you here.

But concerning humans as a SPECIES - I show them exactly as much loyalty as I show all life - in other words, I do not show any special loyalty to humans.

Humanity means just as much to me as any other species. I value a human exactly as much as I value ANY life on Earth.

[Fkeu 'Awpo]

Originally Posted by Eltu

I still show loyalty to individuals - I would not betray any of you here.

So, considering that all of us would be back on Earth, would you or would you not pull a Jake?

Originally Posted by Eltu

But concerning humans as a SPECIES - I show them exactly as much loyalty as I show all life - in other words, I do not show any special loyalty to humans.

So whether a human dies or a little bug dies, it's all the same to you?

Originally Posted by Eltu

Humanity means just as much to me as any other species. I value a human exactly as much as I value ANY life on Earth.

It's just weird that you can moreso value individuals, when all of us individuals make up humanity, which you seem to not be too fond of.

[Eltu]

Originally Posted by Fkeu 'Awpo

So, considering that all of us would be back on Earth, would you or would you not pull a Jake?


So whether a human dies or a little bug dies, it's all the same to you?


It's just weird that you can moreso value individuals, when all of us individuals make up humanity, which you seem to not be too fond of.

Yes, I would "pull a Jake".

I value a human and a bug exactly the same. However, as individuals they can still mean more or less to me. Let's say it like this:
I value my closest friend more than a random bug, since I cannot judge the bug on anything else that the fact that it's alive and worth as much as any other life. My friend I can judge based on that too, AND the fact that he is a great person.

I value a random human exactly as much as a random bug - because then, the fact that they are alive and worth as much as any other life is the ONLY thing I can judge them based on.

This is my point - I do not value a human I don't know higher than any other life, just because he is human. Beyond that, I judge any live beings based on their actions - human or not.

[Fkeu 'Awpo]

"I value a random human exactly as much as a random bug."

One final scenario: a random human and a random animal are about to be killed, but you can save one. Choose, and tell me why.