That's it. I'm moving when I get my degree.

[Isard]

Republicans. **** you. I quit, enjoy your debt and delusions.

ThinkProgress


This is the last straw. I now declare America deceased.

[Ashen Key]

Originally Posted by Isard

Republicans. **** you. I quit, enjoy your debt and delusions.

ThinkProgress


This is the last straw. I now declare America deceased.

...oh, they didn't. Tell me they didn't. Yes, let's just punish raped women EVEN MORE, and make their recovery EVEN MORE DIFFICULT. (And what happens when it's CHILDREN who are raped and now pregnant? Think of the damn children, indeed) *rages*

Gah, I'm so sorry.

[Pa'li Makto]

That's so horrible.. It reminds me of what if happening at the moment with women in the Australian Defence Force...

[Raiden]

Originally Posted by Isard

Republicans. **** you. I quit, enjoy your debt and delusions.

ThinkProgress


This is the last straw. I now declare America deceased.

Welcome to the club.

This is why I like animals so much.

With them, the only crap you have to put up with with is literal.

[Woodsprite]

I'm sorry... last I checked, killing babies for the sake of rapists was considered an idiotic thing to do. How exactly is aborting an unwanted child somehow "justified" because it was conceived through rape? It's a child, regardless. Does the child get to choose how or why it was conceived? It's like no one here is thinking of the kid. Why does abortion always have to be publicized as "all about the mom's choice?" It's not.

[Ashen Key]

Originally Posted by Woodsprite

I'm sorry... last I checked, killing babies for the sake of rapists was considered an idiotic thing to do. How exactly is aborting an unwanted child somehow "justified" because it was conceived through rape? It's a child, regardless. Does the child get to choose how or why it was conceived? It's like no one here is thinking of the kid. Why does abortion always have to be publicized as "all about the mom's choice?" It's not.

Ah, so you are one of the "think of the foetus, screw the mother" types. Good to know. -_-

[Isard]

Originally Posted by Woodsprite

I'm sorry... last I checked, killing babies for the sake of rapists was considered an idiotic thing to do. How exactly is aborting an unwanted child somehow "justified" because it was conceived through rape? It's a child, regardless. Does the child get to choose how or why it was conceived? It's like no one here is thinking of the kid. Why does abortion always have to be publicized as "all about the mom's choice?" It's not.

You volunteering to carry it to term?


If yes, be my guest good sir, if not, shut the **** up because odds are, you will never suffer rape. Not only is this an assault on women's rights, it a blatant attack on the separation of church and state.

[Icu]

Originally Posted by Isard

it a blatant attack on the separation of church and state.

Regardless of what his reasons are, there are other reasons for thinking abortions are immoral than just religion. For example, my philosophy professor from last semester was not religious but held the belief that abortion was wrong on other moral grounds.

I'm not really trying to say anything specific here, because I know religion is obviously the most cited reason, but I just wanted to point that out.

And I guess this just comes down to if you think abortion is murder. If yes, then since I don't like killing anyone, I'd rather not. If no then personal rights all the way. And again, that's probably more of a philosophical question than anything else. Personally I don't think it's murder so I don't think abortions should be illegal, but hey I know smart, sane people who disagree for legitimate reasons. I guess I'm trying to say that the "other side" isn't necessarily as stupid as you'd like to think they are, even if certain people in the groups are.

[Aaron]

Originally Posted by Icu

Regardless of what his reasons are, there are other reasons for thinking abortions are immoral than just religion. For example, my philosophy professor from last semester was not religious but held the belief that abortion was wrong on other moral grounds.

Absolutely. When you hear of babies being delivered at 21-24 weeks surviving, it does make you think! Babies don't just "appear" at nine months, after all, so where do you draw the line? I, personally (and perhaps despite being non-religious! ), have a very hard time simply accepting anybody's definition of "the beginning," as goes human life, which is why I'm so on-the-fence about this issue. On the one hand, I accept that there may be situations where abortion is the Right Thing. On the other hand, I admit: It's difficult for me to abstractly describe what those situations are.

Rape is obviously terrible, but is also added here mainly as a polarizing factor, as if being in any way anti-abortion is somehow being pro-rape. Clearly that is not the case! It's important, I think, to strive to separate the reason the baby (or fetus, or whatever) is there from what to do about it. You really do have to separate the thinking there, or else you are being morally corrupted by your emotions. My opinion.

[Isard]

Originally Posted by Icu

Regardless of what his reasons are, there are other reasons for thinking abortions are immoral than just religion. For example, my philosophy professor from last semester was not religious but held the belief that abortion was wrong on other moral grounds.

I'm not really trying to say anything specific here, because I know religion is obviously the most cited reason, but I just wanted to point that out.

And I guess this just comes down to if you think abortion is murder. If yes, then since I don't like killing anyone, I'd rather not. If no then personal rights all the way. And again, that's probably more of a philosophical question than anything else. Personally I don't think it's murder so I don't think abortions should be illegal, but hey I know smart, sane people who disagree for legitimate reasons. I guess I'm trying to say that the "other side" isn't necessarily as stupid as you'd like to think they are, even if certain people in the groups are.

But they aren't using them. Their response is "Because God made it happen for a reason" This is a cancer within the Republican party that has almost completely taken over. The past two years they have gone from conservatives, to full on regressive, theocratic regressives. Worse still, it shows no signs of stopping. So, since they can magically make voters come out of the woodwork to support their agendas during voting season (who all dissapear under rocks somewhere in the midwest afterwords) Then they can keep whats becoming a running joke of a country and I'll go somewhere else. Everybody wins. Except the women, minorities, and homosexuals who can't get out of course. Kinda sucks to be them, but nothing else I can do for them really.

[Icu]

Originally Posted by Isard

But they aren't using them. Their response is "Because God made it happen for a reason" This is a cancer within the Republican party that has almost completely taken over. The past two years they have gone from conservatives, to full on regressive, theocratic regressives. Worse still, it shows no signs of stopping. So, since they can magically make voters come out of the woodwork to support their agendas during voting season (who all dissapear under rocks somewhere in the midwest afterwords) Then they can keep whats becoming a running joke of a country and I'll go somewhere else. Everybody wins. Except the women, minorities, and homosexuals who can't get out of course. Kinda sucks to be them, but nothing else I can do for them really.

I wasn't talking about "them" I was talking about the actual issue divorced from all of the politically charged language.

It sounded like not supporting abortion was equivalent to being a "right wing religious nut-job" or whatever and I wanted to point out that this isn't always the case. Sure it is sometimes, but generalizations like that make me uncomfortable to say the least. And on the other side, those who support abortion are not necessarily the murderous, amoral, irreverent people that they can be made out to be, though of course you'd agree with that

Basically it seemed like a really black and white issue (thanks to this politically charged language, which almost forces you to "pick a side") and I think it's a lot more gray than either side would care to admit.

[applejuice]

Originally Posted by Woodsprite

I'm sorry... last I checked, killing babies for the sake of rapists was considered an idiotic thing to do. How exactly is aborting an unwanted child somehow "justified" because it was conceived through rape? It's a child, regardless. Does the child get to choose how or why it was conceived? It's like no one here is thinking of the kid. Why does abortion always have to be publicized as "all about the mom's choice?" It's not.

Highlighted is the statement that, probably, should prevail. In first place, as mentioned, the child was conceived by rape. It means that the "child" was conceived against the desire of the mother. It means someone was forced, in what probably is one of the most horrendous experiences that a woman could live: to receive genetic material from a criminal through violence and, to add insult to injury, as a result of such action, the victim must carry along with a pregnancy that should have never happened. It's rape, it's a crime. As for how aware a fetus is, there's plenty of debate about it, but consider that a considerable portion of people in irreversible vegetative status exhibits behavior that could be considered like a concious act.

[Woodsprite]

So killing another to make one "feel better" is somehow... fine? Two wrongs make a right; end justifies the means. Very logical...

[Ashen Key]

Originally Posted by Woodsprite

So killing another to make one "feel better" is somehow... fine? Two wrongs make a right; end justifies the means. Very logical...

Funny. Last I checked, a foetus wasn't medically concerned a person. It should be up to the MOTHER to decide. If she wants to consider the collection of cells within a person, more the power to her. If she doesn't, she shouldn't be forced to go through pregnancy and birth.

And thank you for being so utterly inconsiderate towards women and girls who suffer the trauma of rape. But, hey, at least I know you don't support my right to my own body!

(But please, please tell me that you at least support universal health-care so the mother doesn't have to bear the financial burden of a child you won't let her abort when still not yet a person. And please tell me you are also in favour of paid maternity leave, and improved adoption and child services, so if she chooses to give the child up because she is unable - emotionally or otherwise - to care of for it, it's not going to be bounced from foster home to foster home.

Please tell me this, because then I at least understand somewhere where you are coming from, beyond holding up a collection of cells as being more important than a living, breathing girl or woman.

Of course, if you are in favour of, say, eleven-year-old children being forced to give birth - which has happened - I've got nothing more to say to you on this topic)

[Woodsprite]

I detect... ill.

(If this goes any further, it should be moved to the debate section.)

Originally Posted by Ashen Key

Funny. Last I checked, a foetus wasn't medically concerned a person. It should be up to the MOTHER to decide. If she wants to consider the collection of cells within a person, more the power to her. If she doesn't, she shouldn't be forced to go through pregnancy and birth.

And thank you for being so utterly inconsiderate towards women and girls who suffer the trauma of rape. But, hey, at least I know you don't support my right to my own body!

I'd like to see some scientific evidence for this. I've seen plenty for the argument of those who believe it's a child that lives, starting from conception. I've personally known quite a few young (and older) women who would disagree with you, concerning how a fetus isn't a living child, especially those whom I have sat with in sympathy and comfort, knowing full-well what abortions can be like, and how they can psychologically hurt the mother more than the rapist ever could have.

Yes Ashen Key, I know what it feels like to personally sit up all night with those who've gone through circumstances where abortions, in almost every single case, were coerced by either the parents, peers, or the abortionist when in doubt in the final hour. I've experienced the first-hand stories of those who were raped (yes, raped), and later deeply regretted what they did to themselves and their babies after going through an abortion.

Yes Ashen, I've gone through what no person should go through concerning counseling of others in such pitiful situations, where they wish they could go back in time and reverse their irreversible decision. You have no idea what it's like to go through such pain, Ashen. No idea. Sometimes I wish I could erase my memory for all the terrible things I've heard such things in this subject. Do you know what it's like to actually be able to feel the small baby scrambling and writhing inside you while it's slowly cut up into pieces at only weeks old? or experiencing the trauma afterward, of watching the pieces being sucked out of you? or how many times I've heard respectable doctors say how it is indeed dangerous at times in the abortion clinic? I can't even begin to imagine what it must feel like to be in any of these women's places.

You insult my intelligence by assuming I'm some sort of "crazy, conservative, 'screw-the-mother'" type who has no care for anything but his own personal motivation to uphold some "faulty" principle that has no meaning except to those who have no clue about the real world. You may not have said it, but I can sense it.

You read an article about a mother who wants to abort a baby because she was raped, and you automatically think it's wrong to prevent such a thing from happening because you think the mother, who's in absolutely no physical danger whatsoever, somehow has a right to dispose of the unwanted even when it's been shown by many sources I've read to be an obvious child that lives inside the mother? I don't know how many secular, nonsensical articles you've read about some "right to choice" that the mother has to declare, "I'm my own woman," but you're mistaken to think that this is a subject that has been hammered down as "fully addressed." It's ironic to note how every mother who claims "right to choice" was never chosen to be arborted, and considering how the child has no choice at all. That's blind, sickening, sexist-feminist hogwash if I ever heard any.

Don't you ever, ever presume to know my intentions about such a sensitive subject again when you haven't the first clue about what you're talking about. Do you hear me?

I have nothing more to add.