Why the Avatars should not have been made

[joeylovesgaia]

Has anyone actually thought over how the Avatars are made?

First the alien scientists take genetic material from (dead?) Na'vi (possibly killed by SecOps); the gene-harvesting itself would likely be regarded by the Na'vi as graverobbing and theft of sacred essence.

Then the scientists mash Na'vi and alien (human) essence to make strange hybrids, mostly Na'vi but with quite a few human (that is, alien) features. They are grown not in a mother but in a glass tube. This whole process might well be considered a blasphemy against Eywa (not to mention showing a striking disrespect for the People).

Finally, at some stage of the hybrids' development they are lobotomized; their minds killed to make an empty shell that the "driver" can possess without trouble. Starting to see why this is wrong?

Imagine the horror and anger of the Na'vi, upon discovering how uniltirantokx are made. They would probably kill every last one on their world, every single user of one, and every Sky Person vrrtep who helped make them. And yes, they would include Mr. "I've gone completely native" Jake Sully in that judgement--he still, in effect, killed and replaced the Na'vi person that should have lived in that body.

Really, really unethical. This is Mengele-scale mad science, yet the science branch are supposed to be the good guys. Moral dissonance anyone?

[iron_jones]

No Avatars, no movie.

/thread.

[Raiden]

Originally Posted by iron_jones

No Avatars, no movie.

/thread.

No.

More like "/copout".

Originally Posted by joeylovesgaia

Has anyone actually thought over how the Avatars are made?

First the alien scientists take genetic material from (dead?) Na'vi (possibly killed by SecOps); the gene-harvesting itself would likely be regarded by the Na'vi as graverobbing and theft of sacred essence.

Then the scientists mash Na'vi and alien (human) essence to make strange hybrids, mostly Na'vi but with quite a few human (that is, alien) features. They are grown not in a mother but in a glass tube. This whole process might well be considered a blasphemy against Eywa (not to mention showing a striking disrespect for the People).

Finally, at some stage of the hybrids' development they are lobotomized; their minds killed to make an empty shell that the "driver" can possess without trouble. Starting to see why this is wrong?

Imagine the horror and anger of the Na'vi, upon discovering how uniltirantokx are made. They would probably kill every last one on their world, every single user of one, and every Sky Person vrrtep who helped make them. And yes, they would include Mr. "I've gone completely native" Jake Sully in that judgement--he still, in effect, killed and replaced the Na'vi person that should have lived in that body.

Really, really unethical. This is Mengele-scale mad science, yet the science branch are supposed to be the good guys. Moral dissonance anyone?

1) You can obtain genetic material from any portion of the organism you wish, and then you have the code to make that organism. Considering how advanced genetics are supposed to have come by 2154, it would not be infeasible to simply use the Na'vi genetic material (they do not have DNA; DNA is a specific compound, deoxyribonucleic acid, that is exclusive to Earth organisms and probability says that the existence of the exact same compound in organisms from other worlds is extremely unlikely) as a blueprint (uh...no pun intended...) to make whatever cell or organ they want to. If you think about it, they'd have to have some ridiculously advanced technology to pair DNA with Na;vi genetic material in the first place.

2) They don't lobotomize them...I have no idea where you got that from, but a lobotomy is when a portion of the frontal lobe of someone's brain is removed, rendering them mentally incapable of many higher functions. The Avatar is grown from cells whose genetics are a mixture of Na'vi and Human DNA, and therefore so is all of the tissue. The drivers can only bond with the brain because the Avatar brain is stimulated (therefore allowing it to develop properly) and genetically "hardwired" to it's driver. The brain is the "most human" part of the Avatars, because if it was "too Na'vi" the drivers would never be able to link to them. The Avatars are held in suspended animation and are genetically built to be unable to form the intricate neural complexes that form conciousnesses, so that they have "empty" minds, with enough room for a driver to occupy them.

The answer to your question is that yes, we have thought, but we also know, because much of the info is sort of out there already.

I'm sorry, but your post came off as rather foolish and wildly speculative. Maybe you should ask more questions instead of just posting what you think you know?

[misstammie]

Originally Posted by iron_jones

No Avatars, no movie.

/thread.

Originally Posted by Raiden

No.

More like "/copout".




1) You can obtain genetic material from any portion of the organism you wish, and then you have the code to make that organism. Considering how advanced genetics are supposed to have come by 2154, it would not be infeasible to simply use the Na'vi genetic material (they do not have DNA; DNA is a specific compound, deoxyribonucleic acid, that is exclusive to Earth organisms and probability says that the existence of the exact same compound in organisms from other worlds is extremely unlikely) as a blueprint (uh...no pun intended...) to make whatever cell or organ they want to. If you think about it, they'd have to have some ridiculously advanced technology to pair DNA with Na;vi genetic material in the first place.

2) They don't lobotomize them...I have no idea where you got that from, but a lobotomy is when a portion of the frontal lobe of someone's brain is removed, rendering them mentally incapable of many higher functions. The Avatar is grown from cells whose genetics are a mixture of Na'vi and Human DNA, and therefore so is all of the tissue. The drivers can only bond with the brain because the Avatar brain is stimulated (therefore allowing it to develop properly) and genetically "hardwired" to it's driver. The brain is the "most human" part of the Avatars, because if it was "too Na'vi" the drivers would never be able to link to them. The Avatars are held in suspended animation and are genetically built to be unable to form the intricate neural complexes that form conciousnesses, so that they have "empty" minds, with enough room for a driver to occupy them.

The answer to your question is that yes, we have thought, but we also know, because much of the info is sort of out there already.

I'm sorry, but your post came off as rather foolish and wildly speculative. Maybe you should ask more questions instead of just posting what you think you know?

I strongly agree with your all your information Raiden! Irayo ma tsmukan.

[Ashen Key]

People already raised a lot of points I was going to, but I should point out again that you don't have to die to give genetic material. (Although, the Avatars themselves DO creep me out when I think about them too much, thanks original script where Jake/Josh's Avatar was MOVING without him in it, although I've read an EXCELLENT fic from the POV of Jake's Avatar, so, la).

But also, um, you forgot to mention that HUMANS would likewise regard the Avatars as strange, immoral. Leaving aside the potential personality loss, Dr Lovecraft practised on primates and "condemned criminals" before the Avatars were ready for their Ph.D-owning 'proper' drivers. Hello animal and human rights abuse, right there, and THAT'S where I think the actual moral dissonance comes into it.

[Mother of the Forest]

In response to you and the other posts...


The part where Josh/Jake's avatar moves on its own, noted here: [url=http://ruinofdarkness.livejournal.com/675.html[/url] , drew me to this conclusion:
Since the driver and the avatar have years to subconsciously get to know one another, they are eternally tied. Josh/Jake's avatar identifies with Josh/Jake, and it may even know what it was made for in its subconscious. Once it sees Josh/Jake, it calms down. Once Josh/Jake enters into its mind for the first time, Josh/Jake's experiences in the avatar become its experiences, its life. It wouldn't reject Josh/Jake, for since before it was 'born', and since its creation, Josh/Jake has always been a part of it. If you look at it how Mr. Cameron originally wrote it, no, the avatars are not as immoral as you think. It kind of becomes a symbiotic relationship.
The canon avatars, however, are on a different level of immorality, for they never had their own consciousness to begin with, seemingly. I can only gesture that maybe they're simply a result of something similar to the original avatars, albeit they never "awake" on their own, for their purpose keeps them sleeping. Phew...Did this make any sense?

Btw,

Where's that Jake's Avatar POV fanfic at? It sounds interesting.

[Ashen Key]

Originally Posted by Mother of the Forest

In response to you and the other posts...


The part where Josh/Jake's avatar moves on its own, noted here: ruinofdarkness , drew me to this conclusion:
Since the driver and the avatar have years to subconsciously get to know one another, they are eternally tied. Josh/Jake's avatar identifies with Josh/Jake, and it may even know what it was made for in its subconscious. Once it sees Josh/Jake, it calms down. Once Josh/Jake enters into its mind for the first time, Josh/Jake's experiences in the avatar become its experiences, its life. It wouldn't reject Josh/Jake, for since before it was 'born', and since its creation, Josh/Jake has always been a part of it. If you look at it how Mr. Cameron originally wrote it, no, the avatars are not as immoral as you think. It kind of becomes a symbiotic relationship.
The canon avatars, however, are on a different level of immorality, for they never had their own consciousness to begin with, seemingly. I can only gesture that maybe they're simply a result of something similar to the original avatars, albeit they never "awake" on their own, for their purpose keeps them sleeping. Phew...Did this make any sense?

Btw,

Where's that Jake's Avatar POV fanfic at? It sounds interesting.

You linked just to ruinofdarkness's journal, not any post, BTW.

And yeah, that does make sense. But people were still killed in order to create and develop the Avatars WITHOUT having a choice in the matter, which no one seems to be addressing. THAT I would think is inarguably immoral, no matter the debates on the Avatars themselves (although I do still think a bit sus).

And sure! It's an excellent, excellent fic. Come Into The Light, or SelfNotSelf.

[Mother of the Forest]

Originally Posted by Ashen Key

You linked just to ruinofdarkness's journal, not any post, BTW.

And yeah, that does make sense. But people were still killed in order to create and develop the Avatars WITHOUT having a choice in the matter, which no one seems to be addressing. THAT I would think is inarguably immoral, no matter the debates on the Avatars themselves (although I do still think a bit sus).

And sure! It's an excellent, excellent fic. Come Into The Light, or SelfNotSelf.

Link fixed.
Yes, that is the truth, sadly. The avatars never had a say. They are still lost in the end.

Thanks for the fanfiction link


Edit:
Thank you for posting that fanfiction link! It was wonderful...The ending was even, sort of, 'happy'. I hope that's the way it really was >.<

[Ashen Key]

Originally Posted by Mother of the Forest

Link fixed.
Yes, that is the truth, sadly. The avatars never had a say. They are still lost in the end.

The avatars...and, like I said, the people killed while Dr Lovecraft was perfecting it all. I get the impression they were prisoners sentenced to be executed ("condemned criminals" being the phrase used to describe them), but instead of that he got do to Mad Science on them instead. Not very moral, really. And yet, everyone in the Avatar program has to be okay with using the fruit of said Mad and Cruel Science.

Never, EVER seen that addressed, though, anywhere.

Originally Posted by Mother of the Forest

Thanks for the fanfiction link


Edit:
Thank you for posting that fanfiction link! It was wonderful...The ending was even, sort of, 'happy'. I hope that's the way it really was >.<

No problem! I love it so very much, so I'm happy to share and, yes, I loved the ending.

[joeylovesgaia]

Yes. Definitely right on that. Dr. Lovecraft (literary reference, much?) did some seriously questionable stuff on both worlds. The final result, the whole point really, of the experiment was the half-Na'vi hybrids though.

And yes, I may have been a little hasty and overeager there. Stupidly forgot about the fact you take a gene sample from just a few cells, no death required. Still, I think the whole Avatar making thing is an interesting hypothetical exercise in medical ethics, yes? Start thinking about these issues now before we actually can do it in real life. Since we're on our way to being the godlike aliens. ;P

[ISV Venture Star]

I don't think that the Avatars are 'lobotomized' either. It's my belief that only the parts of the avatar brain corresponding to the brain stem and hypothalamus are ever fully operational.

[Boba Fett]

Never in the film I saw something that would suggest that the Na'vi have a concept of blasphemy, or have an issue with “graverobbing.” All the time they were only concerned about real things, about protecting the wealth of their world. (In fact, with their lifestyle, you can say that they have little issue with animals eating the remains of their dead, and since they don't see themselves as much superior to the animals, one form of “graverobbing” is pretty much already accepted.)

We tried to level their forests. We treated them worse than they treat their supper. We killed many of them with the most nasty of guns. We cut one of their Tree of Voices. We burnt their village to the ground. We tried to bomb the Tree of Souls. I'm certain that in their eyes, the fact that we took some of their DNA to make a few avatars is the least significant issue. People on Earth would have more issue with it than the Na'vi.

[Icu]

I think it's definitely feasible that the Na'vi would object to Avatars, since they're definitely unnatural. Of course they might not either.

[Human No More]

I almost thought this thread was a troll.

If you think sampling DNA kills a creature, then you honestly have no understanding of how it works (and for that matter, it was never said that the avatars used a specific Na'vi individual's DNA, it could be sequenced from a mapping of their genome in order to make it more likely to be a match).
Indeed, it seems very unlikely that a use of specific individual's genetic code is the case, since avatars have to be carefully created to be compatible with their user then creating a genetic profile from a map of the Na'vi genome would be far more likely to allow compatibility with the human.


Secondly, I don't think the Na'vi share human concepts (and indeed, how do you apply an abstract concept to a living organism?) - Eywa didn't do anything specific with the Na'vi, they just coexist with her. Applying human mythological concepts to a biological organism doesn't work.

Again, nobody ever said that anything was done to make the avatars dormant - indeed, the nervous system modifications mean they would likely have never been viable as an autonomous lifeform. A lobotomy would not would not actually produce an effect like that. It is perfectly possible to engineer an organism to have no higher functions but a functioning autonomic system, this would likely be an effect of matching the nervous system to the human operator's too.

What REALLY pisses me off is people calling the Na'vi stupid. I'm sure they know what avatars are and the basics of the process much like they know the basics of the neural network. Making ridiculous assumptions with no base like this is pointless - Jake IS a Na'vi now, the Na'vi are not like the humans at all. Sure, some humans might, but there are differences in how the two think. Jake didn't kill anyone, neither did he replace anyone (I would have wondered if you had even watched the film if you were new at this point).

[Ashen Key]

Originally Posted by Human No More

What REALLY pisses me off is people calling the Na'vi stupid. I'm sure they know what avatars are and the basics of the process much like they know the basics of the neural network. Making ridiculous assumptions with no base like this is pointless - Jake IS a Na'vi now, the Na'vi are not like the humans at all.

Actually, I wouldn't be so sure about that - not because the Na'vi are 'stupid', but because I have no idea how on Earth Grace and Co would explain the process given different tech-levels, the language barrier and terminology. But, that's a very minor issue.