Are we deceived by computer generated beauty?

[redpaintednavi]

It seems that by creating certain types of faces, with emphasis on features and structures that we perceive as attractive we can be manipulated in such a way that we prefer the computer generated features before the ones in real, living humans. This can be seen in the fact that at least some individuals thinks that the computergeneraed beauty of Neytiri exceeds the beauty of most real women.

Neytiri is not alone. In a reserach project where one morphed together the faces of several contenders in a beauty competition, people who were shown images of the competitors and the morphed image of them, preferred the morphed computer image.

If this trend increases will it give rise to a society where more and more of us will long for unrealistic images of a would be future partner while we overlook real people? How many have not perhaps overlooked a real, beautiful and nice girl because their minds have been fixed into some dream of Neytiri?

Here is something about virtual beauty:

Beautycheck - virtual miss germany

[iron_jones]

That's not being deceived.
The Miss Germany on the right is way more attractive.
Neytiri IS better looking than most women because she was based off of the golden ratio of facial symmetry, and has no flaws. I don't see how it's manipulation. If you think a face is beautiful, then you do. Everyone desires beauty when it comes to themselves and the people around them.

[redpaintednavi]

Originally Posted by iron_jones

That's not being deceived.
The Miss Germany on the right is way more attractive.
Neytiri IS better looking than most women because she was based off of the golden ratio of facial symmetry, and has no flaws. I don't see how it's manipulation. If you think a face is beautiful, then you do. Everyone desires beauty when it comes to themselves and the people around them.

But is it not at least somewhat manipulative to use special geometrical features to trigger some inherent instinctive pattern for perceiving beauty? Its little like manufacturing a lure for fish that exaggerate the sorts of movement that triggers reflexes in the fish that makes it attack. In commercials and other contexts these beautiful, artificial faces can perhaps manipulate us to buy things, or to support things we should not have supported without them. At least it is some kind of risk. And can it not be some risk that we loose ourselves in dreams of unobtainable and unrealistic beauty, while we miss out on the real beauty out there in the world?

At the same thing maybe these images can make women trying to manipulate themselvws (plastic surgery and other stuff) just to be like the computer generated faces in order to be more attractive. Is it not something of a danger in that?

[iron_jones]

Originally Posted by redpaintednavi

But is it not at least somewhat manipulative to use special geometrical features to trigger some inherent instinctive pattern for perceiving beauty? Its little like manufacturing a lure for fish that exaggerate the sorts of movement that triggers reflexes in the fish that makes it attack. In commercials and other contexts these beautiful, artificial faces can perhaps manipulate us to buy things, or to support things we should not have supported without them. At least it is some kind of risk. And can it not be some risk that we loose ourselves in dreams of unobtainable and unrealistic beauty, while we miss out on the real beauty out there in the world?

At the same thing maybe these images can make women trying to manipulate themselvws (plastic surgery and other stuff) just to be like the computer generated faces in order to be more attractive. Is it not something of a danger in that?

The thing is, it doesn't trigger anything, nor would men cream their khakis when they see an image like that. Nothing is really manufactured because there's already pre-determined features that can make one beautiful. Like I said, there's a "golden ratio" when it comes to facial symmetry. No one's going to have to have the latest Swiffer vacuum (Which looks pretty bad ass) just because a symmetrical, beautiful woman told us to buy it. Well, maybe some men might, but I hope not.
If women want plastic surgery to be more symmetrical, they should be able to do so. That goes for men as well. It's good to encourage an environment where no one is judged by their physical appearance, but let's be honest, that will never happen. Ever. We live (in North America at least) in a world where men usually gain recognition and status through wealth, and women who are beautiful are usually much more powerful. And it all goes back to having sex (though that's something for a different thread).

The "beautiful Miss Germany" image, though symmetrical and appealing, I'm sure most wouldn't go "goo-goo eyes" over a woman who looked exactly like that. She's pleasing to the eyes, yes, but there's nothing particularly ravishing. Every man (I think) has certain preferences that they look for, usually. I like when a girl has a small but visible scar on her face, I have a god friend who likes women with freckles and a friend who loves it when women have gauged ears, the bigger the plugs the better.
So I don't really things like images of symmetrical women can influence our desires or our opinions. I think.

[redpaintednavi]

Originally Posted by iron_jones

The thing is, it doesn't trigger anything, nor would men cream their khakis when they see an image like that. Nothing is really manufactured because there's already pre-determined features that can make one beautiful. Like I said, there's a "golden ratio" when it comes to facial symmetry. No one's going to have to have the latest Swiffer vacuum (Which looks pretty bad ass) just because a symmetrical, beautiful woman told us to buy it.

Still many companies and their marketing divisions seems to think so. How many times have they not tried to sell all sorts of things by having beautiful looking women in commercials? And if you manage to enhance the features that we perceive as beautiful further by computer imaging, then why could that not be used to even sell more products?

Originally Posted by iron_jones

Well, maybe some men might, but I hope not.
If women want plastic surgery to be more symmetrical, they should be able to do so. That goes for men as well. It's good to encourage an environment where no one is judged by their physical appearance, but let's be honest, that will never happen. Ever. We live (in North America at least) in a world where men usually gain recognition and status through wealth, and women who are beautiful are usually much more powerful. And it all goes back to having sex (though that's something for a different thread).

well, I suppose you are right, but perhaps one at least should try to curb the most excessive tendencies of promoting specific ideals of beauty. After all eating disorders (anorexia and similar) and other fixations about weight and looks is a growing health problem in the industrial world and it costs a lot of suffering and resources.

Originally Posted by Human No More

Educate yourself.

Concern troll - RationalWiki

You are coming off as one.

You read to much into my posts. I just like to see different sides of a subject and discuss different apects of it.

Sometimes it seems that you are too intolerant and go berserk as soon as anyone questions some aspect of your favourite fantasy world.

Originally Posted by Human No More

That is impossible, because people don't react the same way to the same stimuli. There ARE individuals who are generally/widely considered attractive and ones who are widely considered unattractive. Neither is universal.

So why is there at all a whole industry (marketing, commecials and similar) that make a living on triggering our instincts by showing us different kinds of stimuli, among them pictures of people that have features that at least many people in our culture find rather attractive? Behavioral psychology do actually show that there are features that triggers certain responses in us. Also different companies spend millions to find the right triggers to use in marketing.

Originally Posted by Human No More

No, they can't (or, rather, no more than any other method of advertising), otherwise everyone would be constantly buying every advertised item. Advertising is highly competitive due to its nature, and the time and resources spend on research are extreme - if there was some magic formula, it would be literally omnipresent. On the other hand, production of images is generally cheaper, easier, and faster turnaround than using live models, the only discrepancy.

Noone talks about a magic formula, but still there are things that are known to trigger our emotions and desires. And they are frequently used.

Originally Posted by Human No More

People do that anyway. Are you trying to imply that people DON'T fantasise about foo random celebrity/person they know/random person they walk past? If so, you have abandoned all pretence of having an actual point and this can be seen as nothing more than concern trolling.

Yes, obviously many people loose themselves in all sorts of dreams. Some do it in such a degree that they forget the real world, they become passive instead of trying to actively make the real world a better place.

Originally Posted by Human No More

That So you oppose plastic surgery? Wow. What next, forcing everyone to not show their faces in public because some people are better looking than others? Becoming the Handicapper General from Harrison Bergeron?
If someone wants to seek an ideal in appearance (or any other respect), it's their right and prerogative to.

As I mentioned before, to hysterically try to conform to some unobtainable ideal of beauty have distorted the minds of many young people (especially girls) leading to different disorders (as for example anorexia) causing a lot of suffering in our society.

But that perhaps is of no consequence as long as some company can make a lot of money profiting from it?

[Human No More]

Originally Posted by redpaintednavi

So why is there at all a whole industry (marketing, commecials and similar) that make a living on triggering our instincts by showing us different kinds of stimuli, among them pictures of people that have features that at least many people in our culture find rather attractive? Behavioral psychology do actually show that there are features that triggers certain responses in us. Also different companies spend millions to find the right triggers to use in marketing.

Because there is no magic method. If there was, a while industry would be unnecessary. You just answered your own question

Noone talks about a magic formula, but still there are things that are known to trigger our emotions and desires. And they are frequently used.

That isn't magic. It doesn't guarantee anything, and can be done with humans too.

Yes, obviously many people loose themselves in all sorts of dreams. Some do it in such a degree that they forget the real world, they become passive instead of trying to actively make the real world a better place.

...and? That's their prerogative.

As I mentioned before, to hysterically try to conform to some unobtainable ideal of beauty have distorted the minds of many young people (especially girls) leading to different disorders (as for example anorexia) causing a lot of suffering in our society.

That's their fault. People can still aspire to anything they like and should do so without a wannabe Handicapper General telling them they can't.

[Human No More]

Originally Posted by redpaintednavi

But is it not at least somewhat manipulative to use special geometrical features to trigger some inherent instinctive pattern for perceiving beauty?

That is impossible, because people don't react the same way to the same stimuli. There ARE individuals who are generally/widely considered attractive and ones who are widely considered unattractive. Neither is universal.

In commercials and other contexts these beautiful, artificial faces can perhaps manipulate us to buy things, or to support things we should not have supported without them.

No, they can't (or, rather, no more than any other method of advertising), otherwise everyone would be constantly buying every advertised item. Advertising is highly competitive due to its nature, and the time and resources spend on research are extreme - if there was some magic formula, it would be literally omnipresent. On the other hand, production of images is generally cheaper, easier, and faster turnaround than using live models, the only discrepancy.

At least it is some kind of risk. And can it not be some risk that we loose ourselves in dreams of unobtainable and unrealistic beauty, while we miss out on the real beauty out there in the world?

People do that anyway. Are you trying to imply that people DON'T fantasise about foo random celebrity/person they know/random person they walk past? If so, you have abandoned all pretence of having an actual point and this can be seen as nothing more than concern trolling.

At the same thing maybe these images can make women trying to manipulate themselvws (plastic surgery and other stuff) just to be like the computer generated faces in order to be more attractive. Is it not something of a danger in that?

So you oppose plastic surgery? Wow. What next, forcing everyone to not show their faces in public because some people are better looking than others? Becoming the Handicapper General from Harrison Bergeron?
If someone wants to seek an ideal in appearance (or any other respect), it's their right and prerogative to.

[Human No More]

That's not being deceived - that's just optimisation. It's taking features that are appreciated and creating a new combination - much like happens to any human via a random element; simply removing the random element from the picture.

You seem to be implying Neytiri is NOT attractive, in a disparaging tone - that to me seems like a clear agenda right there - well, yes, Neytiri IS attractive, and more so than many humans. Remember that ~50% of everyone is below average in any given respect. If I didn't know better, I'd think this thread was a concern troll.

Humans vary. Unless you're implying all humans are equal and ideal, then it is blindingly obvious to even someone stupid that some people (or depictions) are better than others. There is no reason that does not extend to depictions in general, as it has done for hundreds of years. The whole 'uncanny valley' idea is complete rubbish, it is arguable up to a point but then becomes terminally flawed.

[redpaintednavi]

Originally Posted by Human No More

.

You seem to be implying Neytiri is NOT attractive, in a disparaging tone - that to me seems like a clear agenda right there - well, yes, Neytiri IS attractive, and more so than many humans. Remember that ~50% of everyone is below average in any given respect. If I didn't know better, I'd think this thread was a concern troll.

I do not deny the attractiveness of Neytiri, but at the same time she is not real, she is just a computer generated image (that borrows voice, body language and some features from Zoe Saldana and who act upon a script). No real woman can be exactly like that. A risk with such a character is that some people will dismiss real women because they cannot live up to the standard of her. And still they are real, but not she.

And one do not have to be a troll because one sometimes can see through the fantasy and see the reality behind it.

[Human No More]

Originally Posted by redpaintednavi

And one do not have to be a troll because one sometimes can see through the fantasy and see the reality behind it.

Educate yourself.

Concern troll - RationalWiki

You are coming off as one.

[iron_jones]

Originally Posted by redpaintednavi

If this trend increases will it give rise to a society where more and more of us will long for unrealistic images of a would be future partner while we overlook real people? How many have not perhaps overlooked a real, beautiful and nice girl because their minds have been fixed into some dream of Neytiri?

So I'm not allowed to prefer and want a very attractive woman?

[redpaintednavi]

Originally Posted by iron_jones

So I'm not allowed to prefer and want a very attractive woman?

But perhaps one still must see the difference of a computer generated image that is designed to trigger our instincts (as the fishing lure is to the fish) and real women. Unfortuantely many women today feel that they are forced to try to live up to more and more unrealistic ideals.

[Clarke]

Originally Posted by redpaintednavi

If this trend increases will it give rise to a society where more and more of us will long for unrealistic images of a would be future partner while we overlook real people?

Why is this statement in the future tense?

[Niri Te]

As technology improves, and the Virtual becomes as real to the senses as the actual mundane world, we might have something close to the first Matrix movie. The "Virtual reality will be far more enjoyable that the humdrum real one. VR will become the new drug of choice.
Niri Te

[iron_jones]

As true as that could be, Niri Te, that has little relevance in this case.