Avatar driver hours and "matechoosing"

[Sempu]

Originally Posted by Human No More

Norm: "Yeah, the ??? sims worked really well"

"Proprioceptive." Relating to muscle stimulation. Probably something like a TENS machine.

[Patrice Maire]

I looked up 'proprioceptive' on wiki and it's fascinating! Once you read what is involved with that it keys in how much experience Norm had and why Jake was so awkward at first!
It is your perception of where your body parts are in your immediate space and the little shot of Ron doing the finger touching exercise is one of those tests.
Given Jake's 0 hours of any training in any avatar sim, this is why it was so shocking to everyone that he was there.
If Jake had any mech suit training at all, that would be similar to 'driving' an avatar which may have given him 'a gorgeous brain' relative to others.
Just thought I'd pass on my wonderment about that because it adds another level to the research that was involved for this movie.
(I want to apologize about my typo, I've been calling 'Norm' 'Ron' sheeesh! i need to watch the movie again! Or do some more reading about the characters!)

[auroraglacialis]

Hehe - Well, Jake was "chosen". The whole movie is not completely SciFi. It also has some mystery in it, like the signs of Eywa with the woodsprites. So I guess something about Jake made him special.

The things here make sense. I was wondering about that "choosing" topic at first, too, especially as people bashed Avatar pretty bad on that, but I also saw it more like "you may choose, but that woman has to choose you to". I mean - we here can also choose anyone - it does not help however if that is not answered - Oh and maybe the sentence "that woman has to choose me too" is not actually an invention of Jake at all - I can imagine that it is a ritualized answer in a way. That this is what Jake is actually supposed to say in that situation according to the customs.

For the clan leaders however there seems to be some kind of reduced freedom in that choice. That is indeed a bit strange and unneeded - the both leaders would not really have to be mated for life after all. Interesting point though (and speaking very much against the claims that the NA'Vi are "patriarchial" is the matrilineal succession of leadership. After all, Neytiri as daughter of the two clan chiefs is the one that secedes in that position and her mate will become clan leader.

I would think, that interpreting the will of Eywa is something that the daughter of the former chief shaman of the clan would be best to do (possibly it is a talent that is given to a daughter by her mother), while beeing the clan leader (whatever his actual duties are) may be something that can be learned. But that is now pure speculation

[Human No More]

hmm, yeah...

I think it could be possible that the Tsahik's daughter usually has more choice, but for whatever reason, Neytiri was told that Tsu'tey would be best... since after all, when she did choose Jake, he became olo'eyktan (although after Tsu'tey died due to what happened before of course )

[Fosus]

I think the training was explained in script/scriptment but don't quite remember what it was exactly. Some virtual reality thingy.

[Patrice Maire]

For the clan leaders however there seems to be some kind of reduced freedom in that choice. That is indeed a bit strange and unneeded - the both leaders would not really have to be mated for life after all. Interesting point though (and speaking very much against the claims that the NA'Vi are "patriarchial" is the matrilineal succession of leadership. After all, Neytiri as daughter of the two clan chiefs is the one that secedes in that position and her mate will become clan leader.

The clan system is variable. The Omaticaya have a male clan leader and female Tsahik but for the Ikran tribe near the ocean, they had a female leader but we didn't see the Tsahik, it could have been her mate. It all depends on the individual clan, there are no set rules for all the tribes, other than there has to be a male and female leader.
That in itself is a great little detail.

[ScottWashburn]

Yes, a simulation seems most likely. In fact, driving an avatar technically IS a simulation. The human isn't doing anything, but he's receiving sensory input to his human brain that's being gathered by the avatar, and the nerve impulses from his brain are being diverted away from his own body and sent to the avatar instead. All you would need to do is to link a sophisticated computer with the right programming to the other end of the link in place of the avatar and for the driver it would be indistinguishable from the real thing.

As for Na'vi mating practices, that's an interesting question. I'm guessing that when Neytiri says that Jake "may choose a woman" she really means that he's free to try and find a mate if he can. The future tsahik and olo'eyktan are a different matter and I imagine their pairing is arranged in some fashion. I'm guessing that the child of the current olo'eyktan and tsahik will become the next tsahik and then a mate (male or female) will be found for them. Obviously it needs to be someone who is acceptable as the next olo'eyktan.

[Advent]

Originally Posted by Anima

How do Norm and the other avatar drivers get their driver hours on earth without an avatar? (Grace:"have much linktime have you logged" Norm: "about 520 hours")

Magic?

Nah, probably a Virtual Reality system. They already have such a thing, as training for the astronauts going up to the ISS.

[ISV Venture Star]

Originally Posted by Anima

Here's two things I've been thinking about:

How do Norm and the other avatar drivers get their driver hours on earth without an avatar? (Grace:"have much linktime have you logged" Norm: "about 520 hours")

Maybe they drive the Avatar as a child, before they're shipped off to Pandora. Alternatively, maybe they drive one of Dr. Lovecraft's brain wiped primates.

[auroraglacialis]

Hm - I think in one of the script drafts, the idea was to build the connection to the Avatar during flight as it matures, but that was not the case here. I can imagine either a VR simulation or in fact one of the rather disturbing ways that was mentioned in the last post. It was mentioned that during the development of the Avatar program, various not so neat practices were applied like making Avatars out of living beeings on Earth and so forth. So I can just hope it is simulation...
The Ikran clan with the female leader - indeed in that case, my theory on the matrilineal succession of the spiritual leadership is not supported, though we dont see her co-leader and dont know if she is also spiritual leader, if there is a male spiritual leader here... I guess this one remains a mystery

[Human No More]

Possibly, it could just be that whoever is better for the role can be olo'eyktan or tsahik... I would guess that there isn't even any particular reason they would need to be mated, that's just the way it happens to be done by some clans, maybe. Perhaps some have a male tsahik and female olo'eyktan who are mated, or even the two not being mated but having their own and just running the clan together.

[Tiberius]

1) Precisely what this "link time" is,that Norm has had, is never really explained, all one can do is speculate. It is probably a virual reality simulation as Fosus said. The "proprioceptive simms" mentioned in the film are nothing to do with link time. They are soley for the purpose of muscle training, muscle enhancement, and improving muscle coordination/muscle control of the Avatars bodies.

2) With regards to mate choosing. There are many hundreds of clans on Pandora, each may do things differently. It is clear that there is free will involved with both parties, i doubt that mate choosing is arranged. With Neytiri and Tsu'tey, we were told that they were to become a mated pair, however Neytiri has no qualms about mating with Jake behind Tsu'ty's back, and there were no negative conseqences for her, so it is clear that despite the possible influence societal roles such as Tsahik and olo'eyktan, ultimately each Na'vi is free to choose any mate the want.

I do whish that the relationship between Neytiri and Tsu'tey had been made a little clearer. If they were certain to become a mated pair then why did Neytiri cheat on him behind his back with Jake, instead of just telling him to his face that she was not interested, BEFORE imparting on the relationship with Jake. That way at least he would have known beforehand and therefore would not have been so broken hearted by her actions; or perhaps she was worried about how he would respond if she told him, who knows?

[Raiden]

The way most people seem to understand the mate thing, (if this hasn't already been said) is that after a male Na'vi completes all of his training and rites of passage, they are allowed to pick from amongst the clan females.

The thing that has me curious about this has to do with gene pools.....if one clan just kept interbreeding, eventually the gene pool would become too "stagnant" and there would be a huge spike in stillbirths and deformities.

Other animals that live in groups like this have a similar problem, and it is usually solved mainly through the influx of new members of the same species to the "clan".

So, my question is, to solve this problem, which they must know about (even ancient Earth civilizations understood inbreeding was dangerous, I'm making an educated assumption), do the Na'vi occasionally allow males to court/choose females from other clans?

I can't really think of any other way to solve the problem, and mutation is a very very slow process (most humans have 10,000+ mutations occur in their genes each day, but more than 99% of them are harmless, and your body has a vast anti-mutation "toolkit", as well as a myriad of "checkpoints" at which mutations are likely to be detected before they can be translated into cells and cause things like cancer), so would the Na'vi cross-mate individuals into/out of different clans to solve the problem?

[Human No More]

I'd guess that perhaps clans meet occasionally and some may choose to mate with someone from another clan - it's implied in the survival guide that clans meet sometimes anyway as some clans specialise in different things to others, would make sense in terms of obtaining what they need. Since clans seem relatively large (at least a few hundred, and we don't know if the omatikaya were large or small compared to other clans), then it's not like genetic diversity would be a major issue. Also, part of a Na'vi name is the family name, which is similar to a human one as it shows who is closely related and this would avoid most direct inbreeding. Diversity could be maintained by some DNA material crossing over with other clans.

PS. shouldn't that be 'more than 99% are harmless'?

[Raiden]

Originally Posted by Human No More

PS. shouldn't that be 'more than 99% are harmless'?

LOL, good eye. Fixed.

I should really try and find that survival guide thing....I didn't know that it went over stuff like this.