USER POLL: Allow religious debates?

[Advent]

Originally Posted by Woodsprite

I'm a human being who has a real life; one outside ToS that has more meaning than any of this.

Congratulations.

But wait, you aren't leaving, are you?

[Woodsprite]

No, I'm not leaving. Remember, I promised I'd never go.

I'm just going to refuse taking part in anymore user discussions on how this site goes. Whether it's a poll, or suggestion thread, or whatever. I'm no longer participating. I'm going to stay out of the debate thread as well. I'm not going to discuss anything regarding religion or politics publicly here, ever again. If an argument arises in a thread, I will attempt to resolve it, but I'm no longer taking sides anymore. Consider me a stoic on religion and politics here, from now on in the public of ToS. If someone wishes to discuss subjects like this to me, take it up in the PMs. I'm only going to discuss such things in PMs (and social groups, like the "Christian Avatars" group).

I'm also going to create a thread in the "General Discussion" area, regarding myself, and whether anyone has a problem with me, to take it up in PMs. I'm sick and tired of all this secrecy.


EDIT: Wouldn't you know it, this is my 1,800th post.

[Mika]

This is a continuation of the meditations and teachings that can be found on My Labyrinth Thread.



(Reflect and add your own perceptions to what other 'wires' contribute to reinforcing a 'cage of oppression) (for me religious intolerance and disunity is one such 'wire')

What Do We Need to Know

Consciousness is Personal
We all interpret reality through our own 'lens.'
Our individual reality is also Collective
Our indentity(s)
Influence our perceptions.

How am I the oppressor?
How am I oppressed?
Can I connect Personal experiences to Structural realities?
Can I locate myself in the overt and subtle "Wires"
Of the "cage of oppression"?

There is nothing simple about Oppression
We experience it as individuals
It is embedded in our society.
Complex barriers have been Internalized
Enacted on us .. by us
Daily

Hierarchical power-over must be Examined .. Challenged.
All are linked .. All depend on others for their Survival.
The Domination cycle ... Power and Control
Enculturated in us all
Must be Unveiled ... And Moved Beyond

Gain Consciousness
Question your Past and Present perceptions
What did you know ... Do you know now?

(Circle Works - Frye Jean Graveline)

[Human No More]

Originally Posted by Woodsprite

Well... here we go.


I told you before: I thought I'd already used it here. It was a harmless thing. Hardly comparible to showing someone's IP address. Tell me J--"HNM", is a first name of a random person in the world going to be dangerous to his/her safety on the internet, or is an IP address? You're an administrator; you be the judge.

...Hopefully.

Again, you're calling persecution on this when my actual intention was simply to make a comparison and I thought that was obvious.

<stdout> I think that instead of 'Want me to post your IP and email addresses and GeoIP information?' you should've said 'Would you like it if I were to post...'

So fine, apologies for my wording. There is still no excuse for using my IRL name in a post in some kind of attempt to gain power over me though.

...What? What does that even mean? That "amount of complaining" from me saved your face from being smeared enough so everyone could read what was said about you, as well as Elyannia. I was against both sides. Most importantly, the resolution was done without you being involved, amazingly, since you eye every thread like a hawk at its prey.

Like I said, you're being selective in what you respond to.

"HNM", your thread-closing thunder-buster tactics aren't exactly the best ones to use to resolve situations. If you would post the right type of post, and give it a little time, threads would normally simmer down. I've been there, done that. I've been a moderator before, and have seen it many times. The problem is, you don't believe it can happen... probably because you don't want it to happen; am I right? You just want to have an excuse to close a topic you're sensitive to because your beliefs are completely against what's being said.

Did you even read my post above at all? I said I will try as hard as I can not to. Stop being so fixated on what HAS happened. If you really want to make a difference, then try to help in threads that are turning into arguments and there will be no NEED to. I WILL try to post in one first to see if people stop, and if they do, there is no problem.

Well let me tell you something, HNM. ToS is diverse. It is full of people who have conflicting views that you'll never understand. Closing topics that seem heated to you is just a sign that you don't like religion; period. This isn't about anything else with you, is it? It's just about the religious discussions, when there've been many other discussions (as Banefull pointed out) that got heated for reasons other than religion. You feel like you must respond to every post directed at something you support, when you don't have to, HNM. Let it go. You told me once that "I'd do the same" if something I believed in was challenged, but you know what, HNM? You missed my point. My point in that discussion I had with you was that I can let go. I let go of the discussion on Creation/Evolution. I let go on the discussion of American politics with Tsyal Makto. I let go of my pride on my beliefs concerning the Japan nuke bombings. I let go when it came to discussing the Bible in the thread on "Rights and Priviledges".

I have that power, HNM. The power to let things be and forget about it. Everyone has that power, HNM. You do too. You just have to learn to use it, and things will resolve by themselves. Don't be a parent who's afraid to take her hand off the bicycle seat of her 4-year-old first learning how to ride; let go.

Again, selectivity. As I said, I don't want to leave things to get worse. I don't want to let threads turn into arguments whenever someone brings a subject such as religion into what is often a COMPLETELY unrelated thread. I don't want to have to close a thread. If you don't want to see it happen, don't give people no choice.

...Yes you do! I've seen you constantly make that claim.

Then show me that you can be sensible about it.

"Thread derailments" are what you perceive threads as meaning. You may see an artist make a long, large, jagged, black mark in the middle of his painting amongst all the beauty he has already created, and think he's off his rocker. But then as you watch the progression, you start to realize it's really a large, beautiful tree that he's added into the foreground (Bob Ross FTW!)

My point is, if you see something happening that you think is bad enough to deserve a lock, LOOK AGAIN. Read the whole topic first. Then try to understand what's going on by posting. Then try to PM someone who seems to be making a ruckus; or else, PM the two who're arguing. It takes two to tango, you remember. Then try posting on the thread to resolve it before locking. Trust me HNM, I've done this before; it works wonders. This process will bring the members closer together, as well as closer to you. I learned a lot from moderating; take it from me.

Did you even read my post? As I said in it, that's what I am TRYING to do now... it's hard when you won't even give me a chance. But as you just said, it takes two people, meaning you have to make an effort too.

What does "reasonable" actually mean in your judgment? If you get involved in practically every discussion that occurs on ToS, how could you possibly know how "reasonable" anything could get without you around to constantly make your opinions known? Why do I get the feeling that "reasonable" in that sentence you made really means, "reasonable to me"?

I mean no personal attacks on someone or their family, no nazi analogies (which were made by YOU, may I remind you, possibly why you claim nobody did) and no ad hominem. Most threads that have turned bad have included ALL of those.

Never happened in the history of ToS.

Ok, need me to remind you?
You posted an image with a picture of hitler, stalin and some others and tried to claim that as they were all atheist and made various claims by extension of that.

Wow, you really know how to cherry-pick. I remember the discussion myself; Rapunzel, who mentioned your family, but never intended any insult, was the one you refer to. The topic was called "Sex- Where Should The Line Be Drawn?"; hardly religious, if you ask me. Then you insulted her to death afterward where you ended up apologizing yourself. Oh yes, I have a very, very long memory.

So do I. The truth is, there were still negative comments made about my family. I took offence to that. Maybe I overreacted, I will try not to any more.

Apparently, we proved you wrong in the "Happiness" thread. Imagine how many discussions could've been resolved without you stepping in. Imagine discussions that were already resolved, where you stepped in. It seems like you're the only administrator on the team that has gone so far as to personally insult people. zongzeng, Eltu, and Thorinair have never done so, as far as I know. It's only with you, "HNM", and I'm being completely honest.

Yet you don't seem to be willing to give me a chance. I realise I made a mistake, I POSTED THAT IN MY PREVIOUS POST, but you still try to pick my words apart and ignore what I actually said, that I'm going to try harder to resolve things.

And many times, they don't end in a fight. You say it does, but I've been places like "Conquer Club", where there's actually a "Flame Wars" section to the forum! And even there, all the fights are kept bottled up. Everywhere else, threads tend to die from discussion not being worth it anymore. Fighting is not where most threads tend to go. I don't know where you got this; maybe 4chan, or some other roach pool or wherever, but it isn't as common as you think. Not even on 4forums.


Except you.


Only happens when you have absolutely no intention of trying to resolve things. It's like saying, "Seems like my car has a broken spring... I better take the car to the junkyard."

AGAIN... did you read my previous post? I am trying, I realise my mistake, but that doesn't change the past. You seem to be the only person who can't accept that.

[Human No More]

Originally Posted by Woodsprite

You make it sound like people have made it their desire that religion be used to derail a topic; like it was their purpose to use it that way. Maybe people just mention a belief system, and others respond to it, saying they completely disagree and start to argue, which in most cases that I've seen around the boards, is you. And who can stop you? No one, because you're an "administrator".

I have? Well, sorry for that then... That was not my intention, I only ever meant that WHEN it is mentioned, it causes more arguments than anything else. There HAVE been threads with it that have remained perfectly fine, there is No problem there. At all.

Well again (for the 5th time), I apologize. I seriously thought I had used your name openly before.

...But why are you so angry about it? It's just a first name, and a nice one. Do you have something to hide, or...?

Nothing to hide in that sense... I guess I overreacted... the way you use it like that was what annoyed me... Yes, perhaps I did get more annoyed simply because of he rest of the content of your post, so I apologise for that too.

I agree. Should threads be closed because of this, resulting in more animosity between the people involved in the conflict, as well as a little for the person who closed the topic? Or, should they be helped to get resolved, usually (and I say this from experience) resulting in the two shaking hands, and making their differences up in a way where they both agree to disagree?

Hard choice, isn't it?

That's WHY I made it... I don't want to see this happen as much as you don't.

ToS is a marvelous place, and I would never, ever, EVER do anything to jeopardize its existence. The members make up what the website is. If the members were to represent the citizens of a country, the administrators would be the prime ministers/presidents. The moderators would be the police. They should uphold the will of the members, but they must make decisions on their own at times. This is inevitable.

However, there are good decisions, and bad ones. The good decisions are rewarded with a happy website. The bad ones make an unhappy one. The members, if left alone in some situations, can resolve differences on their own. They aren't babies, they're smart enough to realize certain truths. These principles should be apparent to all moderators and administrators of this forum. I shouldn't even have to be writing any of this. But sadly, it must be done.

Yet you question them... I have spent a LONG time thinking about my actions and I realise I was making a mistake, so thank you.

And what happens when you are one of those people who spouts an insult towards someone else? What's gonna happen to you; a scolding, pat on the back, and then running along?

The principle is utterly destroyed when arguments have moderators who don't respect the position to moderate, but rather act like any other member of the forum, only with power to delete/lock threads and ban members. That's not right, HNM.

So what do you suggest I do?
I'm trying here, but you don't seem to want to listen. There was a time MONTHS where none of us needed to take any action at all (except merge double posts primarily because many people find them annoying, and move a couple of threads to the right forum). Perhaps it's time to bring that time back. I can do it and I will because I care about ToS.

The reason why I'm even contesting this is because I know as a matter of fact that I have never, ever voluntarily insulted someone personally, here on ToS. There was one incident with a picture, but I never intended to insult with it; only to retaliate against hate-speech about Christianity (which happens here almost as often as it does on graveyardofthegods.net).

Again, fair enough - many things can be misunderstood.

Well I'm sorry you feel that way, HNM. Very sorry...

I'm not. I'd rather have something than nothing at all.

That's a dream. I bet you'd highly "value" the fact that I just leave ToS altogether.

Again, no... We certainly may not see ye to eye on many thins, but the forum would be less without you as it would without ANYONE.

I hope you can understand that.


So, to reiterate from my previous post:
I will try to resolve things without resorting to action. I see no need to not allow specific topics, EVEN IF they can get very personal at times.

I want this to change, but everyone else has to too.

[Elyannia]

Originally Posted by Andisavatar

gee this thread is a debate of its own now...

Yep...what started as a simple innocent poll turned into a full on flame zone.

[Isard]

Originally Posted by Woodsprite

I am not going to do this anymore. I don't care what the administration does anymore. I don't care what people say to me anymore.

I've deleted both of my huge posts. If anyone wishes to see them, I have them saved... but I know that absolutely no one would ever care to read through them. I have lost interest in it all. I'm not going to turn my life into a forum life. I'm a human being who has a real life; one outside ToS that has more meaning than any of this.

I'm through. Do what you will, REDACTED. I don't care if religious discussion is allowed or not. I'm out of this.

Well, congratulations on finally realizing that you shouldn't take the internet seriously. You may be taking things a bit far though. Its fine to debate/argue/discuss, but there's a point when you need to sit back, and say...


"KITTENS!" Followed by making a post of a kitten in some manner. In short, you don't need to remove yourself from those area's of the forum, you need to lighten up. Because the internet, is a series of tubes, transporting lolcats.

[Woodsprite]

Don't be a Michael Scott, Aihwa.

[Isard]

Hey! KITTENS!

[Advent]

Originally Posted by Aihwa

Its fine to debate/argue/discuss, but there's a point when you need to sit back, and say...


"KITTENS!" Followed by making a post of a kitten in some manner. In short, you don't need to remove yourself from those area's of the forum, you need to lighten up. Because the internet, is a series of tubes, transporting lolcats.

[Isard]

Originally Posted by Advent

[Advent]

Originally Posted by Aihwa

[redpaintednavi]

Perhaps one could have a special subforum about religion and spirituality where these things could be debated without disturbing other threads.

[stdout]

Originally Posted by redpaintednavi

Perhaps one could have a special subforum about religion and spirituality where these things could be debated without disturbing other threads.

The thing is, a person's religion affects (or is that 'effects'? ) many of their viewpoints.