Toxic Slugde Flooded a Village

[auroraglacialis]

Meanwhile, the toxic spill is not over: "new cracks may cause the wall to collapse or spring additional leaks", evidence hardens that there were signs of leakage before the spill and that these signs show up at numerous sites in Hungary: "Although Interspect found many suspicious sites around the country, 'we're not construction engineers or specialists who could interpret what the picture showed,' he told". And of course there was no plan in case this would happen, so "A police statement issued Tuesday suggested Bakonyi was guilty of negligence, saying he did not prepare an emergency warning and rescue plan to be implemented in case of an incident like the sludge spill" - But just a day later they let the guy go. At least the government took over the company. But why is it that in the end always the government (the people) have to clean up the mess? What was that idea about investment to finance expensive projects - wasnt that supposed to ensure that there are enough finances to clean up such a mess?

EDIT: Oh and they apparently found a nice solution what to do with the millions of tons of such sludge produced each year - mix it with equally toxic waste from oil production to form a "less toxic" sludge:

Bauxite residue, sometimes called "red sludge" or the more euphemistic "red mud," is the waste created by industries that produce aluminum. At present, the residues simply accrue in containment ponds. Worldwide, there are in excess of 200 million tons in these ponds.
"Companies don't voluntarily spend money to neutralize waste unless someone tells them to do it, sadly," Zhu said. "Our technique could be quite expensive. [...]
The combination of bauxite residue and oil-field brine is a novel approach to waste disposal, but this isn't an instance where the combination of two negatives equals a positive. It's more of a less-negative, Zhu says.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1013122603.htm
Now on with replies: /EDIT

Originally Posted by Sight Unseen

I agree with you there. It's not that I don't like humans,[...]I believe there's still hope for us, but it's a faint glimmer.
I would rather be a Na'vi than a human for sure, but that doesn't mean that I've completely shoved humanity out the airlock. I acknowledge the fact that we humans need to change. But some don't. They're content to sit on their arses and rake in the profits at the expense of the planet they're sitting on. Those are the people that need to be changed, or failing that, stopped, at any cost because they are killing the rest of us.

Originally Posted by Tsyal Makto

I've come to realize that the root of the problem is not the masses of society, it is the elite. It is the few extremely rich, and extremely powerful rat bastards that run the world, and their apologists in the mainstream media

Well - we agree on almost everything here then
My opinion of "what can be done" is not clear. I am not clear who or what causes the whole mess and what is the most efficient way to get away from it. Who or what causes it? Is it some few greedy bastards "up there" who exploit the ones below? Certainly. Is it the ones in the middle, the average civilized person who wants do drive a car and have a TV and consumes 60 times as much energy as most people of the world? Certainly. Is it the (corporate) media that propagate that way of life even to the farthest resgions of the world? Certainly. Is it a hierarchy, that allows corporations to be formed, rich people to be rich and the "big men" to be big? Definitely. Is it the culture of civilization itself, agriculture, surpluses, ...? Most likely.
The problem I see is, that even if one manages to convince some of the "people in power" that they need to change, they quickly shift position and other people will take their place, holding the same opinions as before. I once said, it is not people who choose the job they want to do, it is the Job who chooses the people that fit into it. A CEO of a corporation will always act the same - if you kick him out, the next will be the same. if he starts to act kindly, we will loose his job and someone else with the "right attitude" takes over.
This may again be a bit misanthropic, but people usually are not in power over the actions that happen. We like to think that people can change the world, and sometimes they can, but as long as there will be corporations, there will be CEOs that act greedy. As long as there are cars and cheap oil, people will use that and as long as you are encouraged and rewarded for striving for money and power, people will go for that. It would take an immense self-control to not do that ba an immense number of people. Clearly this is not happening.
So what is the conclusion of this - I am not totally sure, just that asking the ones in power nicely to change their ways or tediously convincing the middle class to give up some of their comforts is not going to work.
What I think has more power is to make people aware of the fact that their life is not in fact the best there is. That the cycle of commute, work, eat, watch TV, sleep, commute,... is not "life" - that it is a bad replica of life. Many know this, the poor know it, the ones who work and do not earn a lot know this. Even middle class people know this in their heart. They strive to material wealth to get some happiness back, but thats not working in the long run. So once people are aware of that situation, they need an alternative. A good one, one that gives them more than they would loose by leaving their current way of life behind. If that alternative is not there, people will not change. Some people of course say, that if the system itself is attacked directly by "any means neccesary", people would also have to change. But even the greatest eco-warrior cant take down the system head on. Activists chaining themselves to trees or protesting can slow down some destruction, they can raise awareness, but I dont really see them succeeding - I heard the quote "we need it all" and I think that is true - people setting up new ways of life, showing these ways to people, experimenting with new ways - but also taking the system headon - throw shoes into the cogworks and such - slow the fracking destruction down. If that makes sense.

YouTube - You Are With Us

[Sight Unseen]

Originally Posted by Tsyal Makto

So yeah, I have gone from hating people in general, to pitying them, while at the same time wishing a slow, painful death on the rich, powerful sons of bitches that truly deserve that kind of fate. They deserve to be lined up, and shot, one-by-one, and I dream of being the one to pull the trigger. Other than being a Na'vi, being able to take part in a global revolution is one of the dreams I long for the most. In the words of Mike Malloy, when the lights go out, there's a few out there that I want personally.

I wouldn't go as far as to wish anyone dead, but I'm right there with you. One way or another, there's a few ratbags out there that I don't want to ever see the light of day again.

Originally Posted by auroraglacialis

EDIT: Oh and they apparently found a nice solution what to do with the millions of tons of such sludge produced each year - mix it with equally toxic waste from oil production to form a "less toxic" sludge:
Can Hungary's red sludge be made less toxic with carbon?
Now on with replies: /EDIT

Oh joy. We now have a vat 2x as large with 2x as many types of chemicals. How does that make it any less toxic?

Originally Posted by auroraglacialis

I heard the quote "we need it all" and I think that is true - people setting up new ways of life, showing these ways to people, experimenting with new ways - but also taking the system headon - throw shoes into the cogworks and such - slow the fracking destruction down. If that makes sense.

Yes, it makes sense. And I agree 100%.

Oh, and is there a BSG quote in there somewhere?

Originally Posted by auroraglacialis

Well - we agree on almost everything here then

I love ToS.

[Human No More]

Originally Posted by Sight Unseen

I agree with you there. It's not that I don't like humans, it just the Na'vi seem to have a lot of the things.... a lot of the things we humans have somehow lost or buried. I don't like humans that are inhuman, which is a majority of society. I believe there's still hope for us, but it's a faint glimmer.

I did have hope, but things like this make me lose that... Even if some people realise and they change, it only takes a few to ruin all the progress made

I would rather be a Na'vi than a human for sure, but that doesn't mean that I've completely shoved humanity out the airlock. I acknowledge the fact that we humans need to change. But some don't. They're content to sit on their arses and rake in the profits at the expense of the planet they're sitting on. Those are the people that need to be changed, or failing that, stopped, at any cost because they are killing the rest of us.

That is WHY I feel like giving up on humanity sometimes... Because it needs everyone to make any real difference. Some people will never care

Yes, I admit I am a misanthrope. I want more than anything to be one of the Na'vi. To be surrounded by people that think the way I do, to be on Pandora, to thrive off the land.

Definitely... but for me, it has to be Pandora... I couldn't pretend everything was OK on Earth while all around me, everyone else was still carrying on the same as ever
I am definitely a misanthrope, not against humans in general, but certainly against the vast majority of them. The people who profit from destruction of the world, from war, from overpopulation. The companies who throw people's lives away for more money. The people who have no respect for other people's lives or freedom. I hate them and I never want to be like that, that is why I hate being even associated with them at all.

Originally Posted by Tsyal Makto

Well, I don't consider myself to be a misanthrope (not anymore at least), but I do consider myself extremely, extremely anti-authority. After a lot of study and thought, I've come to realize that the root of the problem is not the masses of society, it is the elite. It is the few extremely rich, and extremely powerful rat bastards that run the world, and their apologists in the mainstream media. The masses have been purposely made ignorant, so that they will act as resistanceless pawns, to the advance of the elite on their own lives and the well being of the planet. We've been taught not to question, to simply believe everything we see, even if it is the noose that will be eventually be used to hang us all. Any glimmer of hope that people might have is usally quickly extinguished in a flurry of propaganda.

Sadly, it's true...

If everyone realised what was going on and decided they want change, it WOULD happen... but everyone just sits there, thinking they should but scared nobody else does, and nothing ever happens. Very few people are truly happy and satisfied with the way the world is, and they are, almost without exception, the ones who benefit form other people's misfortune and the destruction of our world for profit.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. In a society with a triangular hierarchy, never think that authority has your best interests in mind. Up until the Enlightenment, authority ruled the world with a fascist, corporatist, theocratic, totalitarian system, and they desperately want it back again. They want a world of cheap, ignorant labor that they can exploit to the death for the sake of their own well being, and they want to be able to strip and demolish and drill the world to oblivion for the same reason. They want a system of Neo-fuedalism, in a world where they can drill what they want, blast what they want, pump out what they want, and dump what they want, and if anybody has the audacity to speak out, they'll either 1) "disappear" or 2) get publicly executed. 1984 is a masturbatory aid to some of these sons of bitches.

So yeah, I have gone from hating people in general, to pitying them, while at the same time wishing a slow, painful death on the rich, powerful sons of bitches that truly deserve that kind of fate. They deserve to be lined up, and shot, one-by-one, and I dream of being the one to pull the trigger. Other than being a Na'vi, being able to take part in a global revolution is one of the dreams I long for the most. In the words of Mike Malloy, when the lights go out, there's a few out there that I want personally.

You and me both... When things change, I know I will be there. When everyone realises what's been going on for generations and how nothing ever improves.

So yes, I am a misanthrope, and I'd love to leave this all behind and be Na'vi... but if I can't, I want to change things here. The problem is just getting people to. A small group of people will just look crazy, and everyone will think 'they've got a point, but they'll never do anything'... If all those people joined in, there would be no limits

[electrosphere11]

You kinda have to start small though.

[Empty Glass]

As far as changing/saving/purging the world goes, I think a few good ideas have been mentioned, yet I still am always asking myself - how do we even begin to do it.

I hate being a person who sits on his ass in the status quo, but often I just don't know what to do. Sometimes it all seems futile, and that we'll all just get what we deserve in the end.

[Sight Unseen]

Originally Posted by Empty Glass

I hate being a person who sits on his ass in the status quo, but often I just don't know what to do. Sometimes it all seems futile, and that we'll all just get what we deserve in the end.

Yeah, same here. I'm waiting for an opportunity to change something for the better.

Originally Posted by Human No More

I did have hope, but things like this make me lose that... Even if some people realise and they change, it only takes a few to ruin all the progress made


That is WHY I feel like giving up on humanity sometimes... Because it needs everyone to make any real difference. Some people will never care

Like I said, the hope is there, you just need a microscope to see it.

Originally Posted by Human No More

Definitely... but for me, it has to be Pandora... I couldn't pretend everything was OK on Earth while all around me, everyone else was still carrying on the same as ever

I agree. Let me clarify: I want more than anything to be a Na'vi on Pandora.

Originally Posted by Human No More

I am definitely a misanthrope, not against humans in general, but certainly against the vast majority of them. The people who profit from destruction of the world, from war, from overpopulation. The companies who throw people's lives away for more money. The people who have no respect for other people's lives or freedom. I hate them and I never want to be like that, that is why I hate being even associated with them at all.


Sadly, it's true...

If everyone realised what was going on and decided they want change, it WOULD happen... but everyone just sits there, thinking they should but scared nobody else does, and nothing ever happens. Very few people are truly happy and satisfied with the way the world is, and they are, almost without exception, the ones who benefit form other people's misfortune and the destruction of our world for profit.


You and me both... When things change, I know I will be there. When everyone realises what's been going on for generations and how nothing ever improves.

So yes, I am a misanthrope, and I'd love to leave this all behind and be Na'vi... but if I can't, I want to change things here. The problem is just getting people to. A small group of people will just look crazy, and everyone will think 'they've got a point, but they'll never do anything'... If all those people joined in, there would be no limits

This deserves to be quoted for absolute truth. Basically everything I wanted to say, you said, just in better words. Great minds think alike.

[auroraglacialis]

Originally Posted by Sight Unseen

Oh joy. We now have a vat 2x as large with 2x as many types of chemicals. How does that make it any less toxic?

Well - it makes it less caustic, I guess. And the heavy metals precipitate a bit easier from the water into the sludge. But that was about it from what I read.

Oh, and is there a BSG quote in there somewhere?

Ah you mean "So say we all"? - Didnt think of that, no ...

Originally Posted by Human No More

If everyone realised what was going on and decided they want change, it WOULD happen... but everyone just sits there, thinking they should but scared nobody else does, and nothing ever happens. Very few people are truly happy and satisfied with the way the world is

Yes, that is so true. The ones who are happy are the few who profit the most, the ones who are truely happy are the ones who are not caught up yet in the system. Everyone in between has some discontent, I would dare say. Sure - not all is bleak - most people have times of happiness. For industrialized people this may be a new shiny car, a faster computer, a new PC game or a vacation in a beautiful place, or learning to fly or going hiking. For a person in the "developing countries" it may be moving into a bigger flat, getting a better paid job, getting a TV or even a car or scooter. For someone in the "underdeveloped" countries it may simply be food and water. But in general, so much of this happiness is artificial - it is created by first inciting a need for something and then fulfilling this. First take away freedom, a place to live, food and then sell it back to the people.

but if I can't, I want to change things here. The problem is just getting people to. A small group of people will just look crazy, and everyone will think 'they've got a point, but they'll never do anything'... If all those people joined in, there would be no limits

Originally Posted by Empty Glass

As far as changing/saving/purging the world goes, I think a few good ideas have been mentioned, yet I still am always asking myself - how do we even begin to do it.

Well - I think a first start is, that people start talking about it instead of ignoring it all. Start to think about what CAN be done. That is already something. More people can be united that way, people can be brought to wake up.
Then it gets hairy - most people are scared and that is the tactics of course. Scare people into believing that without the system they would die miserably. This is coming from all directions and the scale of it, once one can identify it, is huge. Terrorism is of course the scare of the day, but it goes on with scaring people about crime, drugs, becoming jobless and homeless. People are scared by the phantom of child molesting and accidents to a point the children are only allowed to play with their PS3 instead of going anywhere. When it comes to nature, we get things like that natives life a life that is "nasty, brutish and short", that nature is dangerous, causes allergies, contains poisonous plants and animals that can bite you and make you ill. Then we have stupid books like "the lord of the flies" that everyone gets to read in school and that fortifies the idea that humans are innately flawed creatures that turn into monsters the moment they go away from civilization.
This is all aimed to give the people the feeling that they need the system, that they would suffer and die if they do anything differently, that without the control of the system they would all start eating each other alive. So people start - out of fear - to really love the system and really love the control and opression. Its completely bonkers! People in the UK actually complain about not beeing controlled in all public places by CCTV cameras! My sister once told me that she would allow cameras to be installed in her home (if they also are installed in all other homes) if that makes her safer and helps catching terrorists. "1984" was NOT meant to be an instruction manual for Eywas sake!!!

Now the general problem - uniting people for one cause - that is THE major issue with all revolutionary ideas and the lack of this happening is the reason we are in this predicament now. Of course - if all people would stop shooting others in wars, if all people would stop using cars and coal electricity, if all people would work together rather than compete, if all people would eat less meat, if all people would give food to the ones who need it - then the world would be a better place. It is always like that - the trouble is that never will all people agree on anything. And the other, even bigger problem is, that the system is rigid enough to reinforce itself - people are caught in a net of fear, seperation, false individualism that is in fact loneliness and are provided with an easy way to follow. Most people will always choose the easy way. Give people an easy way, a default procedure and they follow.
From that, I conclude two possibilities. Either get enough people to get active - to not go the "easy" way because they see it is wrong and in the long term not easy after all. Or present people with a way that is as easy as the default. The first would be to convince people that we are heading for a catastrophe - in ecological and human perspectives. People start to awake already - the more crap happens, the more people become aware that this is not the right way. Then, a better way has to be shown. Politics and Corporations present one: Drive hybrid cars, conserve water, carbon trading, hydropower energy, wind turbines, GMO food to feed the billions, ... - but most of these are for the rich only and they ignore the human perspective altogether, firmly holding to the principle of hierarchy. Can we present another one? One that gives people as much hope and prospect as the default ones? Developing this model is important. Presenting people with a way to live that is more rewarding, more free, more happy than their present ones and making it easy to go there. How can that be done, that I believe is the question, isn't it?

And now I got waaaay off topic

[Empty Glass]

Don't worry about going off topic, you provided a lot for me to think about. Now I just have to figure out this:

Can we present another one? One that gives people as much hope and prospect as the default ones? Developing this model is important. Presenting people with a way to live that is more rewarding, more free, more happy than their present ones and making it easy to go there. How can that be done, that I believe is the question, isn't it?

I'd say more, but then I myself would be going off topic...

[auroraglacialis]

UPDATE:
'Red mud' disaster's main threat to crops is not toxic metals, but instead high alkalinity

Red mud contains toxic metals like arsenic, chromium, cadmium and nickel.
The mud also contains radioactive elements and is highly alkaline.
[...]
With up to 4 inches of red mud coating farmland, concerns arose about red mud's potential impact on the 2011 planting of corn, alfalfa, and other crops.
[...]
The scientists' tests showed that plants in contaminated soil grew about 25 percent slower than crops grown in uncontaminated soil. The main culprit, however, appeared to be not toxic metals or radioactivity, but red mud's intense alkalinity and salt content.

So not the metals or radioactivity are to worry about, they do not impact production as much as the alkalinity. Don't worry about the metal content in the crops too much or about what effect the radioactivity has on the plants. If the legal limits are reached, we'll just use the stuff to feed animals, burn it as biofuel or just mix it with clean drops so that the overall concentration is lower again, right? Bastards!

[Isard]

Do you have a better suggestion?