Understanding Some of the RDA's Motives (SE Scene)

[Human No More]

Originally Posted by Woodsprite

Gonna have to separate...


I... don't think that's what he was saying.



So... then why were you acting like it wasn't before?



Well, the growth rates appear to be the same. Mo'at looks old. So does Eytukan and many of the others who look older. So given that reference, I think I can safely make an assumption on how old Neytiri looks, because Mo'at and Eytukan are obviously older than 50. Neytiri thus looks (very much) like she's about 24 or 25.

Yet for all you know, Mo'at COULD be 100, or older. There's no basis for comparison other than it being mentioned that Na'vi have similar lifespans to humans (meaning 22nd century humans)

So... destroying a sacred area is equivalent to actually murdering someone?

Did I say that?
No. What I said was that it was still an attack on a place they consider important, on a sentient lifeform, and on their very way of life. Any ONE of those is justifiable for retaliation in my opinion.

How do you know that? Maybe not families with children, but what about grown families, who've been there for 20 years?

The RDA is essentially military. Space and resources are limited, including the ISVs to carry people to and from Pandora and supplies to Pandora.
Either way, in the Na'vi takeover of Hell's Gate (which did happen mostly offscreen and with part in the script), I doubt they would do such things, particularly as Jake wanted to send the survivors back to Earth rather than just execute them - in a way, to show how they were better than the RDA, as such an action WOULD have made them almost as bad, I freely admit.

Give me a break. Trudy, actually, is proof of what knowledge can do to change your opinion. The rest of the mercenaries didn't know what they were really doing, except thinking they were killing off native savages that didn't have feelings. Trudy traveled with Grace and her team all the time, and she had a knowledge base in the science being conducted on Pandora. That's why she ultimately decided, "Screw this," because she knew exactly what she was doing if she pressed that "Fire" button.

Perhaps, but everyone would now they are sentient still... Truthfully, Trudy is NOT the same as the rest of the marines, who are idiotic Wainfleet types who actually ENJOY killing, hence signing up to be paid to kill beings in the first place. Trudy didn't sign up for that.

In my humble opinion, with just the knowledge of Trudy, I believe if other members of the RDA knew what was really going on, whether they be miner, mercenary, or just a plain pilot, they would've had the same reaction as Trudy, and would've stepped down. Think about it, please.

Like the Dragon gunship pilot who was laughing?
Some people ARE simply terrible examples of humanity with absolutely no redeeming qualities. There always have been such people, probably always will.
To even the average person, a sentient species who VERY strongly physically resemble humans would trigger any number of responses... amazement, interest, compassion, love, maybe even some fear... but not "hmm, I wonder if I can kill them".

...But they weren't defending their home. They were attacking out of revenge. The attack on the mining team was not an attack to defend anything. It never was. It was a vengence ploy.

And not stopping them to limit the damage?
Sure, vengeance is part of it, but that's justified considering what they just did. Anyway, many of those responsible were at Hell's Gate and put on a shuttle back to Earth, so did not get what they deserved in the end anyway.

They knew what they were getting into, and the destruction of the trees of voices was really just the last straw for them. It was an outrage to the Na'vi. If it happened to me, I'd be mad as hell. I'd want to do something about it... but would I go all out and pull a Michael Corleone, shooting down my enemies in hot blood? No. And neither would you... hopefully.

You don't know me.
If someone hurt my family (yes, I said family because if anything, Eywa is closer with the Na'vi's connection to Pandora), then I definitely would want vengeance, I'd want to make them suffer for what they did and prolong it for as long as I could.
When you clearly shouldn't do something in the first place, saying you didn't know it specifically is no excuse.

The Na'vi's attack was all they knew how to do. It's all they could do, and I sympathize, as I said. But that still doesn't change the fact that it was an attack that was uncalled for, and was too severe. They could have just destroyed the equipment.

And the marines would have let them do that, I assume?

They could've left everyone alive. But they didn't. It's understandable, yes, but still unacceptable.

How exactly? An action like that takes some time, it would not be possible to without harming people unless it was left unguarded.

Again, keep looking at it from the RDA's perspective. Don't just look at it from yours.

I understand their motivation, I just could not disagree with it more completely.

See, that's where you're blowing things out of proportion again. I knew you'd make a comment like this, which is why I wrote the two sentences afterward:

They had no idea what they were destroying, or what they were really doing, to know why they were being attacked. The Nazis knew what they were doing. So did the Red Army under Mao. So did the enforcers under Pol Pot. The miners didn't want to kill anyone. "I got a native doing a funky chicken, here. He's blocking my blade." If the guy was truly guilty, he would've deliberately tried to kill Jake. The only truly guilty ones are the mercenaries.

Then why didn't that make him stop and think? Why didn't he consider WHY the Na'vi would stop him from destroying it?
If that didn't, why did Jake taking a rock and destroying the cameras not do that? Why did he not realise he was causing them to respond?
Anyway, you could see he was considering it, he just wanted to ask first. Selfridge tells him to, but he doesn't stop. He doesn't object. He doesn't refuse to. He doesn't even just give Selfridge the console and say 'do it yourself.'.

[Human No More]

Originally Posted by Woodsprite

Why would anything be obvious to a miner working on his job? He was cutting down some trees. Wow, what a difference. Why would the trees of voices be any different than the other trees they already destroyed, with no Na'vi retaliation? "Wow, these trees are pink. Whatever." That's the mindset. That's all there is.

They have no expectation of what might be out there, except the natives. There's a native blocking a blade that's cutting down a few trees. Is that supposed to mean something to him? Besides maybe scrambled Na'vi, which he doesn't want, there isn't much meaning to a native standing in front of a giant machine that will kill him if he doesn't move, except maybe to say the native is insane, or just really angry that all sense and logic has left his mind for the moment. As for "his mate"? She's just another native with him, not necessarily his mate. How do you expect the miners to know all this?

Firstly, as for Neytiri, Selfridge realised, as did Quaritch.
But anyway - even IF they didn't realise until that point, a Na'vi actually trying to stop them is certainly a sign.

"Oh, why are they attacking us?" It's absolutely a legitimate question they'd be asking. They've cut down thousands of other trees and never encountered an attack on the scale that Tsu'tey led. What's so special about this group of trees? They wouldn't know. Please try looking at it from the other side, and not just yours.

I know you consider the script non-canon because it makes the RDA look even worse, but it it at LEAST semi-canon (not to mention the games which confirm the same story as backstory) than Sylwanin and others did the same before. I somehow doubt that was the only previous incident either... Look at Quaritch's speech again. About how the arrows will kill a human in one minute, about how the Na'vi are hard to kill. Look at the weapons the marines have, even the fact that there are vehicles with no other clear purpose than military (as opposed to the Samsons which are transports)

Again, you're not looking at it from the RDA's perspective. You tell them about Eywa and everything else you just listed:


Sounds pretty harsh, but that seems like the mindset of pretty much any business man on Pandora. The miners are just there to work. The mercenaries are there to defend. However, Quaritch took things way too far. IMO, Quaritch was not a suitable choice to run the defense initiative on Pandora.

Again, incorrect basis for your assumptions.
Selfridge never said that, and that really does not fit with the actual character from the film who even orders the guy to kill Jake and Neytiri.

I don't think they were counting on being attacked with that kind of force. The guard around the dozers was protection enough from any animal that got in the way or tried to attack, and protection against any mad native that may get in the way.

Not really... Not even enough for a single hammerhead titanothere - probably not even enough for a pack of viperwolves.
It was token to the point that they might have actually been better off with none in terms of inviting attack, location excepted.

Why do you think the driver of the dozer stopped?

Because he wasn't sure what to do and didn't want to end up being blamed if he killed someone when he wasn't supposed to.
Understandable.

I was making a point. The RDA isn't evil, and I'm glad you don't think they are, either. And I agree some actions can't be justified. However, I'm merely showing how they would justify things. That's why the title of this thread is called, "Understanding Some of the RDA's Motives".

I CAN understand their motives - in a word, money. but even beyond that, it's simple, their actions were to provoke an attack. That doesn't necessarily mean blatant apologism and attempts at justification for their actions though, at least that is what I perceived SOME (not even necessarily all) of this thread as. Obviously, it's just an opinion, but one I can not leave unchallenged.

[Woodsprite]

I'm just going to let this go. It's pointless going back and forth like this, when we've both got the same responses to give, with the same logic applied. I'd have an answer to what you said, but it's seriously delving into my free time, and I don't want to end up like:



I'm posting this so you and others know I'm not necessarily a "loser" in this discussion, since that's been thought of me with other threads where I just left without responding.

[X.,.Pandora.,.X]

lol, that picture is so true.....not that I go to bed with anyone...

[Banefull]

Maybe this adds some clarity to what happened. In the original script there were these few extra lines:


GRACE
They bulldozed a sacred site on purpose,
to trigger a response. They’re
fabricating this war to get what they
want.

NORM
I can’t believe that.

JAKE
Yup. That’s how it’s done. When people
are sitting on **** you want, you make
them your enemy. Then you’re justified in
taking it.



Through this lens the RDA seem twice as evil as before.

[Woodsprite]

...How would Grace know the initiatives of the RDA if she's never involved in any decisions the administration makes?

[Banefull]

Originally Posted by Woodsprite

...How would Grace know the initiatives of the RDA if she's never involved in any decisions the administration makes?

She once had direct access to management for a long period of time when her school was still running. There's no doubt in my mind she would have noticed some shadowy stuff and perhaps been encouraged to use her school to influence the natives according the RDA agenda. Also maybe the first bulldozer incident at the school happened in a similar manner.

From reading large portions of the script I get the feeling that she knew a lot more than Jake did about what was going on with the RDA and it weighed heavily on her mind the whole time.

[Neytiri.]

Originally Posted by Banefull

She once had direct access to management for a long period of time when her school was still running. There's no doubt in my mind she would have noticed some shadowy stuff and perhaps been encouraged to use her school to influence the natives according the RDA agenda. Also maybe the first bulldozer incident at the school happened in a similar manner.

From reading large portions of the script I get the feeling that she knew a lot more than Jake did about what was going on with the RDA and it weighed heavily on her mind the whole time.

Yeah i wouldn't doubt it, She was most likely just trying to make the best of the situation.

[Woodsprite]

Originally Posted by Banefull

She once had direct access to management for a long period of time when her school was still running. There's no doubt in my mind she would have noticed some shadowy stuff and perhaps been encouraged to use her school to influence the natives according the RDA agenda. Also maybe the first bulldozer incident at the school happened in a similar manner.

...I don't understand.

Why would the RDA choose to stage the school incident just to get a negative response from the Na'vi if Grace was actually trying to influence the Na'vi with the RDA's agenda? Wouldn't that be counterproductive?

[Banefull]

Perhaps she was no longer needed? Their attempts probrably failed. No doubt Grace would be resistant to what the RDA wanted.

[Woodsprite]

That sounds like a decision Quaritch would make, not Selfridge. As the movie indicates, Selfridge wants there to be a truce between the Na'vi and the humans. He doesn't want open conflict.

Quaritch, on the other hand, just doesn't care. He thinks of the Na'vi as just simple, savage, humanoid beasts that happen to walk and talk, so I'm assuming his rationality behind killing them is that they're all just animals.

[Human No More]

I think that's referring to the happenings in the actual film rather than with Sylwanin. The marines killed them because, quite simply, they are unintelligent, bloodthirsty excuses for lifeforms who enjoy killing to the point they'd to it as a job against people who have done nothing against them.

[neytirifanboy]

I have not read the script nor seen the extra footage.

However, even given what we see in the theatrical version, I think the RDA attack on the Na'vi and Tree of Souls was understandable.

Lets look at situation:
The RDA point of view
The Na'vi are massing in numbers not long after hometree is destroyed. Why would the Na'vi mass unless they intended to attack. I think nit is quite reasonable for the RDA to believe that an attack was imminent, especially considering the damage they had just caused.

The Na'vi point of view
In his speech Jake says that the Na'vi were going to send the Skypeople a lesson. So on that basis, the RDA's fears appear to be completely founded. When i heard Jake's speech, I assumed he intended to attack RDA properly in some sort of way, perhaps taking lives in the process. Theat assumption may or may not be correct, but considering the RDA took many lives at hometree, the war had effectively begun.


So with the Na'vi massing for a potential attack what are the options?

1. Negotiate
The RDA could grovel forgiveness on their hands and knees. It would take a lot of compromises, but Selfridge may be willing to take that. From the Theatrical version, it is not really clear if anyone regards this option as desireable or feasible.

2. Fight
If you are confident in destroying the enemy with minimal casualties to yourself, then war is an option. Whatever else Quaritch lacks, it's not confidence.

In the end both fight and negotiate are both valid options. The option that is taken depends more on who has the most control; the warrior or the merchant.

[Human No More]

Except that he had lost control and that's why things ended badly for him. Even Quaritch had completely lost sight of what his actual JOB was over revenge. In the end the marines still made the only aggressive move, not the Na'vi, so deserved every one of them that got killed and more.

[neytirifanboy]

Originally Posted by Human No More

Except that he had lost control and that's why things ended badly for him. Even Quaritch had completely lost sight of what his actual JOB was over revenge. In the end the marines still made the only aggressive move, not the Na'vi, so deserved every one of them that got killed and more.

I don't disagree with you. What you say makes sense.

In fact, I wasn't looking at the question on a moral level; i.e. was the RDA right or wrong to do what they did?

I was considering it more from a logical perspective. Did it make sense for the RDA to attack the Na'vi as a means to resolve the conflict with the knowledge at their disposal?

I think from a strategic perspective it did make sense. Especially if you are the sort of person who appreciates strength through military might like Quaritch.

But even if he won, it is possible that Quaritch may not have got everything his own way. It is well possible he would have been sacked for the action he took. We know that there was a reluctance to use force against the Na'vi through Selfridge and the scientisits and this attidtude may have been reflected back on Earth, even with the need for unobtanium. But from what I see in the theatrical version, it is difficult to know whether Quaritch would be treated like a hero or a criminal.

But from a purely military point of you, I believe the course of action was valid. But that doesn't mean it was the right or the best decision.