Linked scenes and mirror scenes

[Sempu]

neytirifanboy, those are all good observations. I think most of them are valid, not coincidences. A good movie maker thinks of these kinds of things. Study some of Kubrick's work and you'll realize there are many more conscious choices by a director than are apparent at first glance.

For instance, the "real legs" exchange could have taken place anywhere; why did Cameron choose to put Quaritch in an AMP suit? Your analysis is compelling. I like also your "web" observations. They tie in with the images of Jake's brain on the control screens and the images of signal conduction between tree roots on Grace's iPad.

[Human No More]

Originally Posted by Sempu

For instance, the "real legs" exchange could have taken place anywhere; why did Cameron choose to put Quaritch in an AMP suit?

Simply, because there are time constraints. It also shows more of Quaritch's personality that way.

I appreciate you can get a lot of things from these, but I do still think that sometimes, you have to enjoy the film and not think 'what is JC saying here?'

[neytirifanboy]

Originally Posted by Human No More

I appreciate you can get a lot of things form these, but I do still think that sometimes, you have to enjoy the film and not think 'what is JC saying here?'

Why can't we do both? in the end, if anyone is not interested in this sort of thing, then surely the best option is not to take part in the thread. There are some threads I am not interested in and think are pointless. But I don't criticise because I know others do have a valid interest. I simply decide not to contribute. If you are not interested in what JC might be saying. Then that is fine. But others may be interested.

Originally Posted by Sempu

I like also your "web" observations. They tie in with the images of Jake's brain on the control screens and the images of signal conduction between tree roots on Grace's iPad.

Thanks for that Sempu. I knew there would be other web images in the movie. I will look out for these in more detail next time I watch the movie.

Although i suspect I will receive more criticism, I will mention the other mirror image scene; i.e. where Jake confronts Quaritch in the end and quaritch says What does it feel like to betray your own race.

It is noticable that Quaritch does not use the term human here. This is probably because at that moment, neither of them are truly human. Both are abberations of humanity whose survival is only allowed through technology.

Jake is in an Avatar alien manufactured body which he only controls through a link unit. So he is not truly human.

Quaritch is encased in a metal Amp-suit and requires an artificial breathing apparatus just to survive. Again he is not truly human.

Nethier are able to survive in their natural human form at that moment which is weak and is dependant on technology to survive on the wrld of Pandora. And that is perhaps a metaphor for what is happening on Earth then and possibly now.

I think the confrontation represents the choice facing humanity. Do we encase ourselves in technology like Quaritch while becoming physically weak to the extent that we become dependant on it, while at the same time believeing arrogantly that we are the pinacle of progress. Or do we use technology to free ourselves and become a stronger human both physically and psycologically.

In the confrontation, it is the arrogant, hateful and vengeful Quaritch who believes he truly represents humanity. And the viewer has to ask if that is the sort of humanity we want to be. When Quaritch uses the "betray your own race" line, the viewer is challenged to review his own feelings. It is an uncomfortable scene because, we believe we are betraying humanity by supporting Jake. But in reality, thatvis not the case because Quaritch is not representing humanuty either.

[SaphirJD]

well, i have to say i really did not take care to this relation of the events which are presented in the thread but i guess its correct that a good moviemaker throws in such tiny pieces not only because of coincidence.

But well, we can not say for sure

[Woodsprite]

Originally Posted by Human No More

I appreciate you can get a lot of things form these, but I do still think that sometimes, you have to enjoy the film and not think 'what is JC saying here?'

I think that's pretty-much how we all thought while first watching Avatar. But then there comes the point where we've watched it so many times that we start looking for things we didn't notice before; things that could be more or less read between the lines.

[Sempu]

Originally Posted by Woodsprite

I think that's pretty-much how we all thought while first watching Avatar. But then there comes the point where we've watched it so many times that we start looking for things we didn't notice before; things that could be more or less read between the lines.

Figuring out how the movie works (because subtext is so powerful) also gives the ambitious among us an education in how to make their own world-changing productions.

[neytirifanboy]

Originally Posted by Sempu

Figuring out how the movie works (because subtext is so powerful) also gives the ambitious among us an education in how to make their own world-changing productions.

Yes, it can be useful. A few years ago, I read a few books about script writing. I even wrote my own script, which was a pile of garabge by the way.

But anyway, the books made it clear that the script is not all about dialogue. The movie should communicate on many different ways, including sound and images. The books also talked about the importance of subliminal messages.

In general, I am not interested in analyzing most movies. Only those that interest me. But I have always been interested in the potential message that Avatar is sending and even wrote analysis on these things even in the early days.

in the end a movie can be enjoyed at many levels. And when it comes to a movie like Avatar, I usually enjoy it at all levels, from the most puerile to the profound.

[Sempu]

Originally Posted by neytirifanboy

Yes, it can be useful. A few years ago, I read a few books about script writing
In general, I am not interested in analyzing most movies. Only those that interest me.

Same here. Used to be, in the seventies and earlier, that amateur film analysis was a lot more common because so many films in general release were either cunningly opaque or maddeningly obtuse. From 2001: A Space Odyssey to Picnic at Hanging Rock and Closely Watched Trains, you couldn't even pretend that it was just a simple tale. That sort of make-em-think release is pretty much relegated to minor indies these days.

[Woodsprite]

2001 was so inherently vague that it was outright boring to me. The only way you can understand it is if you've read the book. If you haven't read the book, you're lost, thinking "When the hell is this going to end?" Even if you have read the book, it's not much to watch. It's like a bad psychadelic acid trip while listening to Strauss. The big finale is a big baby that represents "rebirth". It has the same symbolism as sticking a crab apple into a vat of sugary chocolate and calling it a politician.

[Sothis]

I think the coffin parallel, at least, is intentional. There are at least two instances in the script where the link pod is compared to a coffin.

Right before the dreamhunt sequence:

Grace stops him as he tries to close the lid.

GRACE
Jake. You can’t carry this burden much longer.

JAKE
(smiling wanly)
It’s okay. Mo’at says an alien mind probably can’t survive the Dream Hunt anyway.

Grace closes the lid. It feels like closing a coffin. She watches his psionic patterns aligning to his avatar, somewhere out in the night.

Right after the mating scene:

He lays his head down, and her arms enfold him, sheltering him as he sleeps.

INT. SHACK - NIGHT

Jake’s eyes open in the darkness. He just lies there, thinking. In his coffin. In another world.

Anyway, regardless of whether something is intentional or no (parallels, symbolism, foreshadowing, etc), I think what ultimately matters is the effect on the audience. Personally, I enjoy this sort of analysis.

[Ashen Key]

Originally Posted by neytirifanboy

Although i suspect I will receive more criticism, I will mention the other mirror image scene; i.e. where Jake confronts Quaritch in the end and quaritch says What does it feel like to betray your own race.

It is noticable that Quaritch does not use the term human here. This is probably because at that moment, neither of them are truly human. Both are abberations of humanity whose survival is only allowed through technology.

Jake is in an Avatar alien manufactured body which he only controls through a link unit. So he is not truly human.

Quaritch is encased in a metal Amp-suit and requires an artificial breathing apparatus just to survive. Again he is not truly human.

Nethier are able to survive in their natural human form at that moment which is weak and is dependant on technology to survive on the wrld of Pandora. And that is perhaps a metaphor for what is happening on Earth then and possibly now.

I actually really hate that bit. Would he say 'race' to Trudy, who is Hispanic? Although I do think your analysis here has merit, I really, REALLY wish Quaritch had said 'species' - the use of 'race' still hits uncomfortably with me. That the humans are, naturally, symbolized by two white men. Two white American men. Ugh. Thanks, Cameron. I'm sure that wasn't your intention, but intentions only go so far.

And I love the note about the coffin symbolism - I both write a fair amount of fanfiction, and role-play Trudy (and now Jake!) in my RPG (Trudy since...March or April, Jake's just been approved today). So, even though I'm not up to putting them through canon yet, I tend to go over the movie and the script and the extended universe with a fine-toothed comb to pick things up and analyse them.

[neytirifanboy]

Originally Posted by Ashen Key

I actually really hate that bit. Would he say 'race' to Trudy, who is Hispanic? I really, REALLY wish Quaritch had said 'species' - the use of 'race' still hits uncomfortably with me. That the humans are, naturally, symbolized by two white men. Two white American men. Ugh. Thanks, Cameron. I'm sure that wasn't your intention, but intentions only go so far.

Actually, it is quite interesting you bring that point out. There is a big difference between the term race and species. The term race is really incorporated within humanity, although you do hear the term alien race.

So did JC use the term deliberately, or is it simply what you would realistially hear. Given that the phrase "What does it feel like to betray your own species" does not sound so natural or even agressive it may be the latter.

In the other hand, the word race is a lot more emotive and brings up connotations of racism, racial purity, racial superiority, etc which is a negative to some (but not all) people. So it may have been intended. The fact that quaritch uses the term race rather than species is another factor which is designed to make us feel less sympathy for Quaritch. If Quaritch had used the term species, we may have felt more sympathy for him because he is referring to humanity as a whole. While by using the world race, it gives the feeling that Quaritch is actually talking about a subsection of humanity to which he belongs, rather than the whole of humanity.

[Ashen Key]

Originally Posted by neytirifanboy

Actually, it is quite interesting you bring that point out. There is a big difference between the term race and species. The term race is really incorporated within humanity, although you do hear the term alien race.

So did JC use the term deliberately, or is it simply what you would realistially hear. Given that the phrase "What does it feel like to betray your own species" does not sound so natural or even agressive it may be the latter.

In the other hand, the word race is a lot more emotive and brings up connotations of racism, racial purity, racial superiority, etc which is a negative to some (but not all) people. So it may have been intended. The fact that quaritch uses the term race rather than species is another factor which is designed to make us feel less sympathy for Quaritch. If Quaritch had used the term species, we may have felt more sympathy for him because he is referring to humanity as a whole. While by using the world race, it gives the feeling that Quaritch is actually talking about a subsection of humanity to which he belongs, rather than the whole of humanity.

Actually, I think he could have used species to much greater effect - we ARE talking about aliens, after all. And there is a tendency in both fandom and in discussion material to treat humanity as one race (logically: American, and presumably white) which rubs me the wrong way. Not to mention treating all the Na'vi the same. So, instead of taking it as a Quaritch statement (and, besides, he's from the military in the future, and a military that has women and people other than Caucasian in it), it reminds me I'm watching a movie. Hard to explain - I get a similar reaction to Jake's comment on the RDA Marines being 'hired guns' - it doesn't ring true to his character as a soldier down on his luck, but rather a statement written by a man who hasn't had to work for a living. But, you know, that's me.

Also, I find there is nothing wrong with both Jake and Quaritch being more morally grey. Makes things way more interesting *grins*

[neytirifanboy]

I don't know. I can very well imagine Quaritch saying what he did. But it's doesn't sound right if he uses the word species.

I think Quaritch used that word precisely because it is an emotive word. The word race is always nearly used to represent conflict. We have racism, race riots and racial mixing. Even when we use the term human race it is either used as a rallying cry for survival (of the human race) on it celebrates advancement, usually at the expense of other species.

Also in this context, the use of the word race is not out of place. How many times have we the term "saving the human race used". So if anything the use of the term is a cliche. With the exception that in this case we are challenged to question and reject the statement,

The word species is much more neutral and thoughtful. That doesn't mean as you say that JC couldn't have used the word species in a more thoughtful way. But in that case the scene would be different. But personally I think the whole idea of that phrase was to shock the audience and make them ask the question: "Am I supporting the right side".

You mention also an interesting point that the human race could relate to white and American. And that may have been JC's objective. Whether we like it or not is another matter. For some like you it is irritating and for others it is welcome. But I am indifferent to that concept and in fact didn't even consider that when watching the movie.

And on a general point I agree with you about Quaritch and Jake. I think they are morally grey in their own way. Quaritch is not a villain who wants to destroy or dominate the Unverse. He just want to dominate someone else's Universe.

[Ashen Key]

Originally Posted by neytirifanboy

I don't know. I can very well imagine Quaritch saying what he did. But it's doesn't sound right if he uses the word species.

I think Quaritch used that word precisely because it is an emotive word. The word race is always nearly used to represent conflict. We have racism, race riots and racial mixing. Even when we use the term human race it is either used as a rallying cry for survival (of the human race) on it celebrates advancement, usually at the expense of other species.

Also in this context, the use of the word race is not out of place. How many times have we the term "saving the human race used". So if anything the use of the term is a cliche. With the exception that in this case we are challenged to question and reject the statement,

The word species is much more neutral and thoughtful. That doesn't mean as you say that JC couldn't have used the word species in a more thoughtful way. But in that case the scene would be different. But personally I think the whole idea of that phrase was to shock the audience and make them ask the question: "Am I supporting the right side".

You mention also an interesting point that the human race could relate to white and American. And that may have been JC's objective. Whether we like it or not is another matter. For some like you it is irritating and for others it is welcome. But I am indifferent to that concept and in fact didn't even consider that when watching the movie.

And on a general point I agree with you about Quaritch and Jake. I think they are morally grey in their own way. Quaritch is not a villain who wants to destroy or dominate the Unverse. He just want to dominate someone else's Universe.

I think in all honesty we might have to agree to disagree, here. To me, I can hear 'species' just as well, and to me, it sounds better. It has more of an effect. Jake is, in a way, betraying 20 billion members of his own species - that has more impact than just 'race', which could be 'white and American'.
'Race' is just 'oh, please, do we HAVE to go there in this movie, which already has strong elements of being racially problematic' to me. 'Race' is tired and cliche and full of problematic overtones. I also think that 'species' could be a nice piece of thoughtful world-building.

And I can't step away from that aspect - I'm an Australian, and as an Australian, one gets very sick of American = humanity. Also, the circle I run in on livejournal is very sensitive to such issues, so in turn I'm more sensitive to them.

To be honest, I enjoy Avatar much more now I have Trudy and Jake in my head then I did the first time I watched it. Which gives me a different perspective than most people here, I think.

But, yeah, to me, both Quaritch AND Jake have shades of grey, which makes them far, far more fun to play with than Quaritch is Evil and Jake is Good. Personally, I find the version of Quaritch who is Just Doing His Job (and who has, somewhere, snapped under the fact that he can't keep his guys alive) far more scarier than plain evil.