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[neytirifanboy]

Originally Posted by Ashen Key

But, yeah, to me, both Quaritch AND Jake have shades of grey, which makes them far, far more fun to play with than Quaritch is Evil and Jake is Good. Personally, I find the version of Quaritch who is Just Doing His Job (and who has, somewhere, snapped under the fact that he can't keep his guys alive) far more scarier than plain evil.

This I definately agree with. The fact that he is a normal human with no special powers who is not overtly evil, actually makes him a scarier villain, because he believes he is doing the right thing.

With regard to the "race" point, I don't really think we disagree. I am more making observations than putting forward an argument. It is more an exercise in analysis than debate.

To be honest, I accept the point that the use of species may have been better. you may be right there. I just don't know. I would have to see it used in action to decide if it is better than using race or not. And who know, in foreighn language translations, they may well use the word for species in some cases (although I am not in a position to verify this now).

I was just making observations about why the word race was used. But regardless of the analysis, obvioulsy each person will have their own perception of whether they like it or not. The only thing I will say is that the phrase has an unsettling affect on me. But I neither see that as good point or bad point in the contect of the movie as a whole.

From my point of view, I have found that some of the more cliched statements bother me less as I watch the movie more. I really cringed the first time I heard "unobtanium" and "shock-and-awe". But when i have watched the movie more times, these things don't bother me at all now. I just accept that them as part of the movie. Especially Shock-and-awe. I just see it as the way Quaritch talks. To me, it is believable, as Quaritch speaks in cliches. But I can understand why others may not like it.

[Sothis]

I'm just popping back in high-five Ashen Key and neytirifanboy and declare: "YAY for moral ambiguity!"

The emotional maturity of the story improves a lot when the situation is allowed to have shades of grey, and I for one am a fan.

[Ashen Key]

Originally Posted by Sothis

The emotional maturity of the story improves a lot when the situation is allowed to have shades of grey, and I for one am a fan.

*BEAMS* absolutely. Morally grey is so, so much more fun, and that's the way I write. Particularly Trudy and Quaritch, because oh, man, the complexity there is just wonderful. And then you have Grace, who is elitist and misanthropic (and, one could argue wilfully blind in some cases) and yet also brilliant, and she certainly loves and adores the Na'vi children. And Jake, with his procrastination, and also his unthinking, idealistic dismissal of the RDA Marines as nothing more than thugs because he doesn't like the idea of mercenaries. And, hell, you even have Neytiri not telling Jake about the whole 'oops, yeah, sex under the tree of voices + combining queues = marriage for life' thing, and...

And more people should write about all that complexity, I mean, uh. <.<

Originally Posted by neytirifanboy

From my point of view, I have found that some of the more cliched statements bother me less as I watch the movie more. I really cringed the first time I heard "unobtanium" and "shock-and-awe". But when i have watched the movie more times, these things don't bother me at all now. I just accept that them as part of the movie. Especially Shock-and-awe. I just see it as the way Quaritch talks. To me, it is believable, as Quaritch speaks in cliches. But I can understand why others may not like it.

Now that's true enough! I find the more I watch, the more a lot of things don't bother me so much, or I relegate them to 'character', but it takes a while. And if I haven't watched canon for a while, it can still be a little jarring. I STILL block my ears when Jake is complaining about the RDA Marines because I want to thawp the boy over the head.

And also, I should say thank you for this discussion - I've been burned a bit with fans going 'no, the movie is genius, SHUT UP, HATER'. So, a nice, reasoned discussion is just lovely.

[Human No More]

Except it turned out Jake and Grace were both right

I also really don't think Neytiri tricked Jake into that, she may have misunderstood human attitudes a bit but I also think that she would have known Jake would have known just from making tsaheylu

[Ashen Key]

Originally Posted by Human No More

Except it turned out Jake and Grace were both right

*bemused* Right on what? I don't think Grace's dismissal of Jake and the other Marines as idiots, just because they are Marines, is at all a good thing. It's a straight out personality flaw - unless you have a PH.d, you don't get her respect. Unless, maybe, you are Trudy, in which case in my only personal canon, they've had a long way to go before Grace treats her with anything like respect. She's arrogant and doesn't even treat her work-colleagues with respect. That dismissal, and inability to play nice with others, really can't of helped her cause in anyway - if she keeps people away, then she can't really share what she knows, and spread the idea that the Na'vi are people. Which makes it all too easy for them to be seen as not. Which in turn makes it easier for Quaritch to pull a move like he did with Hometree and only have one pilot baulk.

Likewise, Jake really has no room to throw stones. The idea that the US military forces spend all their time fighting for freedom...well, I don't hold with that NOW, and I highly doubt in a dystopian future, everything was like WWII. He's being blindly idealistic (and ODDLY so, given his latter comments about how "you make them your enemy, so you're justified in taking what you want"), and throwing stones at people whom he doesn't even know. He doesn't know why the other Marines are working for the RDA. He doesn't know if they are supporting children back on Earth, or trying to get OUT of a cycle of poverty, or if they are actually like HIM, and basically have no where else to go. He has no idea. He's just assuming. Which, again, it's a flaw. And one that makes me both want to thawp him for, and have fun with as a writer, because he's flawed.

Originally Posted by Human No More

I also really don't think Neytiri tricked Jake into that, she may have misunderstood human attitudes a bit but I also think that she would have known Jake would have known just from making tsaheylu

I...still think she was a little underhand *g* She's the one teaching him how to be Na'vi, after all, and she NEVER said straight up 'this is for life'. As far as consent goes, she didn't really make it all clear WHAT she was after and what the consequences would be. Which is a liiiittle underhand on her part, but fascinating as far as characters and their choices go.

[Human No More]

Originally Posted by Ashen Key

*bemused* Right on what? I don't think Grace's dismissal of Jake and the other Marines as idiots, just because they are Marines, is at all a good thing. It's a straight out personality flaw - unless you have a PH.d, you don't get her respect.

Fair enough in my opinion, especially considering her job. Anyway, she WAS right about the marines.

Unless, maybe, you are Trudy, in which case in my only personal canon, they've had a long way to go before Grace treats her with anything like respect. She's arrogant and doesn't even treat her work-colleagues with respect. That dismissal, and inability to play nice with others, really can't of helped her cause in anyway - if she keeps people away, then she can't really share what she knows, and spread the idea that the Na'vi are people. Which makes it all too easy for them to be seen as not. Which in turn makes it easier for Quaritch to pull a move like he did with Hometree and only have one pilot baulk.

Trudy was someone special, I know it's not canon but I agree with the fanfics where she came to Pandora really, for reasons not unlike Grace, although she may not admit it as much.
Grace just doesn't care about anyone but the Na'vi to the point she doesn't care about her own human body, I know I wouldn't either if I had that opportunity.

Likewise, Jake really has no room to throw stones. The idea that the US military forces spend all their time fighting for freedom...well, I don't hold with that NOW, and I highly doubt in a dystopian future, everything was like WWII. He's being blindly idealistic (and ODDLY so, given his latter comments about how "you make them your enemy, so you're justified in taking what you want"), and throwing stones at people whom he doesn't even know. He doesn't know why the other Marines are working for the RDA. He doesn't know if they are supporting children back on Earth, or trying to get OUT of a cycle of poverty, or if they are actually like HIM, and basically have no where else to go. He has no idea. He's just assuming. Which, again, it's a flaw. And one that makes me both want to thawp him for, and have fun with as a writer, because he's flawed.

Maybe Jake isn't as straightforward as the others there, but I don't think the whole remark about 'fighting for freedom' should be taken that seriously because it always seems more cynical/sarcastic than anything to me.
When the marines are people like wainfleet, their motivation is obvious, and trying to justify them is never going to make any caring person sympathetic to them.

I...still think she was a little underhand *g* She's the one teaching him how to be Na'vi, after all, and she NEVER said straight up 'this is for life'. As far as consent goes, she didn't really make it all clear WHAT she was after and what the consequences would be. Which is a liiiittle underhand on her part, but fascinating as far as characters and their choices go.

Well, she DID love him... but what I meant was that maybe she didn't realise just HOW different it was for humans, and just expected mating to be for life. There's a good reason those lines afterwards were cut, I think.

[Sothis]

I actually agree that what neytiri did was underhanded. A lot of people brush it off because neytiri is PERFECT and ALWAYS RIGHT and, anyway, getting to mate with her for life would be sooooo wonderful that who cares if she doesn't ask first. (Sorry, fanboys... I'm not mocking you to be mean... :p)

That doesn't change the fact that she basically robbed Jake of his freedom of choice. Even if you're sure Jake WOULD HAVE said yes, that should've been his choice to make. As it was, Jake didn't GIVE her his future freely; she TOOK it from him.

And in fact, I'm not 100% sure Jake would've said yes. Before you all kill me, I'm not denying the strength of his love for her in the least (I write jake/neytiri romance fics, for crying out loud). But if she had told him the full implications, and asked him plainly to mate her for life, that might have snapped him back to his senses. ("Yes, of cour... -- wait a minute, what the HELL am I doing?!")

The fact is, at that point in the story, the two of them mating for life is something no sane person would've considered a good idea. Luckily for us jake/neytiri saps, neither of them WERE sane at that point - they were in love. Epic love stories aren't just about kisses & cuddling & sappy adoring gazes. Their kind of romance is life-shifting and unstoppable and terrifying, and it makes the subjects reckless and unthinking and selfish.

I could blather on and on, but the main point is: neytiri is flawed too, and I'm glad she is. I don't think neytiri fans need to feel threatened by this, as jake was certainly selfish in his own right. I don't think it diminishes the romance to allow that neytiri wasn't properly straightforward with him; personally, I think it makes the story more compelling.

[Ashen Key]

Originally Posted by Human No More

Fair enough in my opinion, especially considering her job. Anyway, she WAS right about the marines.

...it is NEVER okay to disrespect someone for not having the same level of education as yourself. NEVER.

Not having the same education doesn't mean anything except they don't have the same education, and it has a very classist edge of snobbery to it. Not everyone can AFFORD to go to university, even if they wanted to. That doesn't mean they are stupid, it doesn't mean they are idiots, it just means that they didn't have the resources. Look at the recent trouble in Britain with students protesting that they can't afford the higher tuition fees - I highly doubt they are idiots just because they lack the money.

And let us never forget that the poorer people in society are the main sources of soliders, just because it's a regularly paying job that gets them out of the situation they were born into.

If that's the way Grace rolls, that's fine. That's the character, and it fits in with her general misanthropic attitude towards humanity. But it's not a good thing. It's a serious flaw and it's a prejudice towards those with less privilege than herself. I appreciate that side of her, as it makes her a flawed human being, but I don't agree with it and I cannot respect that attitude in the slightest.

Originally Posted by Human No More

Maybe Jake isn't as straightforward as the others there, but I don't think the whole remark about 'fighting for freedom' should be taken that seriously because it always seems more cynical/sarcastic than anything to me.
When the marines are people like wainfleet, their motivation is obvious, and trying to justify them is never going to make any caring person sympathetic to them.

"Back on Earth, these guys were Army-dogs, Marines, fighting for freedom. But here they are just hired guns, working for the company," is what I believe Jake roughly said. He didn't sound sarcastic to me. It's also clearly influenced how fandom views the marines, which is an attitude that ignores any chance for them to be interesting, complex, flawed PEOPLE obeying orders. In my own canon, they are, because Jake has no idea what he is talking about. He hasn't asked them, he's just made assumptions. And assumptions that don't even make sense if one actually looks at what professional soldiers do.

Originally Posted by Human No More

Well, she DID love him... but what I meant was that maybe she didn't realise just HOW different it was for humans, and just expected mating to be for life. There's a good reason those lines afterwards were cut, I think.

Actually, I thought the lines "we're mated for life" weren't cut, but it's been a while since I saw that bit of canon. And Sothis has argued my point very clearly, although I'd add that I don't see Jake as the kind of person who would KNOWINGLY marry a girl he loved when he KNEW that there was a spot on the next shuttle back to Earth with his name on it. He's got more integrity than that, and he clearly worships the ground on which Neytiri walks. He wouldn't be that much of a cad to her.

So, yeah.

Originally Posted by Sothis

That doesn't change the fact that she basically robbed Jake of his freedom of choice. Even if you're sure Jake WOULD HAVE said yes, that should've been his choice to make. As it was, Jake didn't GIVE her his future freely; she TOOK it from him.

This. This so, SO much.

[neytirifanboy]

This thread seemed to have evolved into something new. It has developed into more a character analysis. But I think it is relevant because it relates to the symolism of the movie as a whole. The movie principally promotes the power of nature, which in its purest form has no concept of good an evil. And I enjoy the fact that people see things in so many different ways. It's good to see so many perspectives.

In fact, that is one thing that makes me fearful of the novelisation. I do worry that the novel will do too well at fully explaining the motivations, thoughts and feelings of the characters. Although that can be a good thing, it may spoil it for some people when their views no longer consistent with the cannon in the novel. I like it that each person can make their own story story to some extent. I would even go as far as to say that that is one of the reasons for Avatar's success. It would be a shame to lose that.

I can understand why some would say that Neytiri perhaps did act selfishly. She effectively bound Jake to her and the fate of the Na'vi. What I will say about Neytiri is that she is a good judge of character. Perhaps she knew by mating with Jake that he would stay loyal to her and the clan, even against the interests of his own people.

On the other hand, I do believe she took the action because she was genuinely in love with the brave exotic new guy. Howeverm that could still be a selfish act. Unlike some misconceptions that love is selfless, love can make you very selfish.

However, I prefer to see the event in a positive light though as I am a fanboy and simply want to see Neytiri as generally good. I prefer to see the sacrifice Neytiri made and the risk she took tot. be with the one she loved and the proactive way she let jake know how she felt. For me these are positive traints. But I understand why some may want to see Neytiri as more ambiguous and think it is a positive thing.

With regards to Jake their is one bit of dialogue which shows he may have had a dubious history. When Grace and Jake try to persuade Selfridge to call off the attack on home tree because he will be killing women and babies, Jake says the following to Selfridge:

"You don't want that sort of blood on your hands. Believe me."

To me this suggests that Jake may have been involved in some sort of operation that resulted in innocent deaths. Why else would he say "believe me" unless he was speaking from personal experience.

And that then raises questions as to Jake's motivations in the whole movie. Is he a lost guilty soul who has found an opportunity for redemption?

One last point. I mentioned scenes with web shaped images. When i watched Avatar yesterday I saw another which is possibly the most obvious of them all. When Mo'at does the soul transfer ceremony, her cloaked has a clear web-shaped pattern. I never noticed that before.

[neytirifanboy]

Going back to symbolism for a moment, I would like to mention a scene relating to Jake's wheel-chair.

When Jake is struggling for air in the shack during the final battle, he opens his link unit and has to push his wheelchair out the way.

I think this scene is perhaps symoblic in two ways.

Firstly it represents the fact that the wheelchair is now a liability to Jake, not only in that moment but also in his life going forward. Now, in most cases. the wheel chair is an aid to Jake as it helps him get around. But in this case it is a hinderance. He has to spend a moments effort and time to get to his exo-mask. You get the feeling, that if the chair was not there, he may have made it in time. But the chair gets in his way.

The other symbolism is that Jake is rejecting his wheel chair. Now that Quaritch is defeated and his future existence is a Na'vi is secure. Jake is pusking the chair away because he is rejecting it and thus his current human existence as a whole.

Anyway, just a thought.

[Woodsprite]

Umm...

I just thought Jake was trying to use the wheelchair to support himself so he could get to the exopac. Obviously, because his wheelchair rolled away from under his hand, he almost died. In this case, the wheelchair was something he wanted and needed at the moment to sustain life.

[Human No More]

I agree with neytirifanboy that he was trying to get it out of the way because as he was, he would have found it extremely difficult to climb onto it when he could just pull himself up to reach the exopack as he did.
Interesting though, about the second one, although he does use it again when making his video log.

[neytirifanboy]

The way I see the movie, Jake appears to push the chair out of his to get to the mask. He simply doesn't have enough time to pull himself onto it.

However, whether the viewer believes or wishes to see any symbolization in that act is a different matter entirely. I think there probably is some symbolization of some sort. Other may have a different view.

[Human No More]

Originally Posted by Ashen Key

...it is NEVER okay to disrespect someone for not having the same level of education as yourself. NEVER.

Certainly fine to be anoyed when someone you expected for a job who would have been useful (and may very well ahve had a say in choosing in the first place) is replaced with someone knows literally nothing about what he's supposed to be doing though. Anyway, regardless of Jake, she was still right about the rest of the humans other than Max, the science lab staff and the other avatar drivers (who she all already trusted) - the only possible point there is Trudy but it seemed to me like Grace knew her well enough before, after all, Trudy did say that she was the pilot for all the science missions.

Not having the same education doesn't mean anything except they don't have the same education, and it has a very classist edge of snobbery to it. Not everyone can AFFORD to go to university, even if they wanted to. That doesn't mean they are stupid, it doesn't mean they are idiots, it just means that they didn't have the resources. Look at the recent trouble in Britain with students protesting that they can't afford the higher tuition fees - I highly doubt they are idiots just because they lack the money.

I never said that anyone was an idiot except for the Wainfleet types. Jake obviously had the potential (after all, Tom was his twin and obviously intelligent), he just never developed it until partway through the film.

And let us never forget that the poorer people in society are the main sources of soliders, just because it's a regularly paying job that gets them out of the situation they were born into.

Very true, but you also can't forget that while not everyone, some people DO take that job because it allows them to legally kill people and they enjoy it.

If that's the way Grace rolls, that's fine. That's the character, and it fits in with her general misanthropic attitude towards humanity. But it's not a good thing. It's a serious flaw and it's a prejudice towards those with less privilege than herself. I appreciate that side of her, as it makes her a flawed human being, but I don't agree with it and I cannot respect that attitude in the slightest.

I disagree, as she clearly worked hard to get to where she was, she saw what humans were doing and the people around her understood too.

"Back on Earth, these guys were Army-dogs, Marines, fighting for freedom. But here they are just hired guns, working for the company," is what I believe Jake roughly said. He didn't sound sarcastic to me. It's also clearly influenced how fandom views the marines, which is an attitude that ignores any chance for them to be interesting, complex, flawed PEOPLE obeying orders.

If they were truly people, they wouldn't obey those orders. AFAIK, it's even in their orders today that if they are ordered to commit an illegal act or war crime, they are supposed to refuse. Unfortunately, many people will carry our orders regardless (not just military, if you look at things like the Milgram experiment).

In my own canon, they are, because Jake has no idea what he is talking about. He hasn't asked them, he's just made assumptions. And assumptions that don't even make sense if one actually looks at what professional soldiers do.

Yet in canon, none of them questioned anything they were told. They willingly attacked sentient beings, killed children and babies, all because they were told to.

Actually, I thought the lines "we're mated for life" weren't cut, but it's been a while since I saw that bit of canon.

They weren't. What I meant was the lines from the original script, which is the only REAL indication Jake may not have known.

And Sothis has argued my point very clearly, although I'd add that I don't see Jake as the kind of person who would KNOWINGLY marry a girl he loved when he KNEW that there was a spot on the next shuttle back to Earth with his name on it. He's got more integrity than that, and he clearly worships the ground on which Neytiri walks. He wouldn't be that much of a cad to her.

Perhaps, but by then, he was already thinking of staying. He had even ALREADY told Quaritch he couldn't leave yet.