Why Cameron Failed.

[Rainbowhawk1993]

Those people who suposably were fans who like Quaratch were just people who don't see. I Like the military hardware, but I put peoples lives infront of that. I wouldn't kill a person unless they have murderous intaions.

Camron didn't fail. He created an arsonal of kick butt military hardware, but the morjority of the fans on the internet like to learn about the Na'vi, not Human Technogy.

I'm in a liberal family and this movie strangthens my liberal feelings. So Camron was Secessful. The Box office and the fan sites say so too.

[Ashen Key]

Originally Posted by joeylovesgaia

Reposting this.

People were rooting for the RDA. Not everyone, but many. If Cameron meant this story as more than entertainment (and he clearly did), if he meant to change people's minds with this, then he screwed up. What looks evil to a liberal looks justifiable, even honorable, to a conservative. And with the scene in SE showing that the attack on Hometree was provoked, well...civilian targets have been bombed before, and the casualties accepted as a cost of war.

Now to anyone who was following the Na'vi, sympathizing with the Na'vi, the loss of Hometree is felt as a holocaust, a horror. But to boys who idolized Quaritch, loved all the cool hardware, and felt bored (and maybe grossed out) by this "unity of people and nature" thing, it was a victorious battle.

James, you failed. You should have made Quaritch, Selfridge, and the RDA more of a clear villain if you wanted to convert people. You should have screen-tested this movie to conservatives, and tweaked it until they agreed that the RDA was in the wrong. You should have shown the true horrors that empires inflict on the innocent. Slavery and rape, even macho hardasses understand that these are wrong.

.....Wow. I'll have to remember that trying to show people as complicated and not cardboard cut-outs means I fail as a writer. /sarcasm

I disagree with EVERYTHING here. I think the horror of Hometree was clearly there, even if the RDA's actions were understandable to a point (psychology goes off in circumstances like Pandora; the RDA had clearly been holding back from taking violent action against the Na'vi in most cases). How could it not have been? And yes, I think Quaritch is awesome. He's a fascinating character and just pure badass.

That doesn't change the fact that he ordered the destruction of a village. And frankly, I'd prefer it if more writers would remember the fact that their audiences aren't stupid, that showing complexity is good, that things aren't black-and-white. Most soldiers are not bad people - they are just PEOPLE who HAVE to obey orders and who, yes, sometimes do bad things. Showing them to be EVIL would have...well, if Cameron had done that, I probably would have walked out of the movie in disgust. I've read too much of what goes on in war and the psychology of it all.

If anything, I would have preferred it if Cameron showed MORE complexity of character; Avatar is far more black-and-white than I prefer my movies.

And also, I have to ask - having the freedom to choose which characters to like and which to not is...bad? Being treated like I have the maturity and awareness to go 'yes, Quaritch was an *ss and he did awful things that make me flail, but DAMN did he pull it off with badass' is...bad? The writer failed?

Yeah, I really disagree with you.

[Icu]

This is completely false.

You assuming that he set out to do things that he didn't actually set out to do and assuming some pretty awful things about "conservatives" (talk about generalizing!).

And do you really think it would have been a good idea to make every "evil" character completely horrific to the point where they lose their humanity? No. Not from a movie point of view, not from a story point of view, etc. It's almost like you're saying that Cameron failed because he didn't slap anyone who disagreed with him across the face hard enough for them to finally agree with him. As if that's going to "convert" them anyway?

This is nonsense. JC set out to tell a story and let people draw parallels however they saw fit. He succeed.

[EywaBlessMe]

Originally Posted by joeylovesgaia

You should have made Quaritch, Selfridge, and the RDA more of a clear villain

Wrong!
That would have been too simplistic and manipulative.
In the real world, things are not so cut and dried, black hat versus white hat.
In the real world, everyone and everything is some shade of gray, capable of great good and great evil amidst the mass of ordinary.

[Tsyal Makto]

- We're here. As Zenit said, that says something...

- There's thousands of others out there that See, but are not on the forums, or only posted once back in the hay-day of PAD.

- Activist groups/people fighting oppression all over the world have taken up the image of Avatar and the Na'vi to symbolize their own struggles.

- James Cameron is now one of the major faces of environmentalism and indigenous rights.

Cameron didn't fail. He succeeded, quite epicly I might add.

As for conservatism, yeah, the backlash is pretty ridiculous, but that's corporate-sponsored neo-conservatism for you. I'm sure old-school Eisenhower-conservatives wouldn't have reacted that way. In fact, I'm sure the message would have resonated with many of them (rapunzel77 is a perfect example ). Basically what the right-wing has become is a mass of corporatists and luddites who can't fathom that middle-aged white men don't rule the world anymore. So they see something like Avatar that embodies everything they hate, and for lack of a better term, it makes them have a hissy-fit. There's plenty of other, more reasonable (though less vocal) conservatives out there.

[ScottWashburn]

Actually Cameron did fail in one respect (and I've mentioned this before). He made the RDA and the security forces, indeed, all the humans on Pandora, far too American. The RDA is supposed to be a multi-national super-corporation, but all we see are people who look, talk and act like Americans. There should have been people with French, German, English and Russian accents. Obvious Japanese and Chinese and Indian people (Max looks Indian, but he still talks like an American).

Why is this important? Well, I personally know quite a few people who adamantly refuse to watch Avatar because they've heard it is anti-American and anti-US Military. It's not, but it could easily seem that way. One of the early trailers even makes it seem like the RDA security forces are US Marines and some of my veteran friends will not watch a movie where US troops get masacred. So, by doing it the way he did (and it would have cost nothing at all to add some obvious non-Americans) Cameron lost a lot of people who might well have loved Avatar as much as we do.

[Ashen Key]

Originally Posted by ScottWashburn

Actually Cameron did fail in one respect (and I've mentioned this before). He made the RDA and the security forces, indeed, all the humans on Pandora, far too American. The RDA is supposed to be a multi-national super-corporation, but all we see are people who look, talk and act like Americans. There should have been people with French, German, English and Russian accents. Obvious Japanese and Chinese and Indian people (Max looks Indian, but he still talks like an American).

Why is this important? Well, I personally know quite a few people who adamantly refuse to watch Avatar because they've heard it is anti-American and anti-US Military. It's not, but it could easily seem that way. One of the early trailers even makes it seem like the RDA security forces are US Marines and some of my veteran friends will not watch a movie where US troops get masacred. So, by doing it the way he did (and it would have cost nothing at all to add some obvious non-Americans) Cameron lost a lot of people who might well have loved Avatar as much as we do.

There is that, and there is also the fact that some of us here in the international audience are getting pretty sick of the future = Americans. It would have been far more powerful (and gotten the whole 'international company thing across) to have some non-Americans there. Given the blonde woman in the control tower a Russian accent; Wainfleet British; some of the Avatars and scientists different accents. Anything. Something. And it would have been far more imaginative than just 'the future is the US'

[Human No More]

Originally Posted by Tsyal Makto

- We're here. As Zenit said, that says something...

- There's thousands of others out there that See, but are not on the forums, or only posted once back in the hay-day of PAD.

- Activist groups/people fighting oppression all over the world have taken up the image of Avatar and the Na'vi to symbolize their own struggles.

- James Cameron is now one of the major faces of environmentalism and indigenous rights.

Cameron didn't fail. He succeeded, quite epicly I might add.

As for conservatism, yeah, the backlash is pretty ridiculous, but that's corporate-sponsored neo-conservatism for you. I'm sure old-school Eisenhower-conservatives wouldn't have reacted that way. In fact, I'm sure the message would have resonated with many of them (rapunzel77 is a perfect example ). Basically what the right-wing has become is a mass of corporatists and luddites who can't fathom that middle-aged white men don't rule the world anymore. So they see something like Avatar that embodies everything they hate, and for lack of a better term, it makes them have a hissy-fit. There's plenty of other, more reasonable (though less vocal) conservatives out there.

Very well said
I completely agree. Some people are just too entrenched in old ways and oppose everything out of principle with little or no understanding any more.

Originally Posted by ScottWashburn

Actually Cameron did fail in one respect (and I've mentioned this before). He made the RDA and the security forces, indeed, all the humans on Pandora, far too American. The RDA is supposed to be a multi-national super-corporation, but all we see are people who look, talk and act like Americans. There should have been people with French, German, English and Russian accents. Obvious Japanese and Chinese and Indian people (Max looks Indian, but he still talks like an American).

What, based on the ~5 RDA characters with lines? (and Trudy seems to be at least partly South American). Not to mention Jake's Australian-ish accent (although easily fixed in background as being half-Australian or whatever)

America is not even MENTIONED (well, Selfridge does have a miniature American flag on the shelves in his office but I doubt most people even noticed that) and they are by no means he only country to be 'RDA-ish'.

Also agreed, this thread fails epically

[Grif]

Originally Posted by Human No More

Very well said
I completely agree. Some people are just too entrenched in old ways and oppose everything out of principle with little or no understanding any more.


What, based on the ~5 RDA characters with lines? (and Trudy seems to be at least partly South American). Not to mention Jake's Australian-ish accent (although easily fixed in background as being half-Australian or whatever)

America is not even MENTIONED (well, Selfridge does have a minature American flag on the shelves in his office but I doubt most people even noticed that) and they are by no means he only country to be 'RDA-ish'.

Also agreed, this thread fails epically

The only reason why Jake sounds a little Australian is because Sam Worthington is not good at masking his accent. Did you see him in Black Ops? It was terrible.

As for the movie, and I'm including all deleted scenes, it was a success. Cameron created a believable world in which people were people, not one in which humans are scene as evil. Humans are just on the wrong side of the fight in Avatar. I wouldn't call ever Nazi soldier evil, but I would say they were fighting for the wrong side. A movie in which humans are seen is evil would give "conservatives" ammo against it.

[ScottWashburn]

Originally Posted by Human No More

What, based on the ~5 RDA characters with lines? (and Trudy seems to be at least partly South American). Not to mention Jake's Australian-ish accent (although easily fixed in background as being half-Australian or whatever)

Actually, just a quick count gives over 30 RDA personnel with speaking lines in the movie and there are probably more. Every one of them sounds like an American. But whatever the number it still comes down to 100% of them talking like Americans. Not a single non-American accent to be found. An easily corrected thing if Cameron had wanted to correct it.

[Rainbowhawk1993]

Originally Posted by ScottWashburn

Actually, just a quick count gives over 30 RDA personnel with speaking lines in the movie and there are probably more. Every one of them sounds like an American. But whatever the number it still comes down to 100% of them talking like Americans. Not a single non-American accent to be found. An easily corrected thing if Cameron had wanted to correct it.

I can't take it any more, I will have to bring up a far worse story of avatar that already happened: King leopold II and the congo.


BBC NEWS | Africa | King Leopold's legacy of DR Congo violence


When I learned about this in world history class, I thought "O God, This is a real world avatar." King leopold II of Belgium Colonized the congo in the 19th century and he did things so horrered that I just had to be depressed in world history class for the rest of the unit. He hired mercinaries to torment the natives so Leopold could get them to collect rubber for Belgium. The soilders there chopped off the native's hands and displayed them, (If that's not grusom enought, they cut off their privates and displayed them). And of course, nothing is complete with out rape.

I believe that Avatar is a milder verson of the congo than Americans with the Indains. So try to stomach this and think if JC is intending to screw americans soloy.

[EywaBlessMe]

Originally Posted by ScottWashburn

He made the RDA and the security forces, indeed, all the humans on Pandora, far too American. The RDA is supposed to be a multi-national super-corporation, but all we see are people who look, talk and act like Americans. There should have been people with French, German, English and Russian accents. Obvious Japanese and Chinese and Indian people (Max looks Indian, but he still talks like an American).

Keep in mind that it is not a requirement for an evil corporation to be American as many foreign corps are just as evil as domestic ones.

Also, with American English being the lingua franca of both the internet and international business, seeing people fluent in it is to be expected.

Lastly, as an indictment of evil American practices, going for the obvious is understandable.

[Rainbowhawk1993]

Thats not the U.S. out there, Thats a private sercurty force for a Corparation and they were hiered to do their dirty work. As I recall, The U.S. has learned from it's mistake of removing indains in the 19th century. There are contries out there who do more treable things than the U.S. Now a days we try diplomicy, diplomicy, diplomicy.

[Ashen Key]

Originally Posted by Rainbowhawk1993

Thats not the U.S. out there, Thats a private sercurty force for a Corparation and they were hiered to do their dirty work. As I recall, The U.S. has learned from it's mistake of removing indains in the 19th century. There are contries out there who do more treable things than the U.S. Now a days we try diplomicy, diplomicy, diplomicy.

Diplomacy with the edge of 'if you do not do as we say, we will ruin your county' - OH so easy to do now that there is the 'War on Terror'. Previously, the excuse was the Cold War, which gave way to not only invasions but also coups and assassinations. *shrugs*

But the fact of the matter is that an organized made up entirely of Americans reads as 'metaphor for US'. Might not be US government (not exactly, but given how much pressure companies can put on the government...), but US companies who go in and take what they want with military backing?

Yep. At least to this Australian, the RDA still read as 'America' in a lot of ways.

[Neytiri.]

Originally Posted by Ashen Key

Diplomacy with the edge of 'if you do not do as we say, we will ruin your county' - OH so easy to do now that there is the 'War on Terror'. Previously, the excuse was the Cold War, which gave way to not only invasions but also coups and assassinations. *shrugs*

But the fact of the matter is that an organized made up entirely of Americans reads as 'metaphor for US'. Might not be US government (not exactly, but given how much pressure companies can put on the government...), but US companies who go in and take what they want with military backing?

Yep. At least to this Australian, the RDA still read as 'America' in a lot of ways.

If you haven't noticed after we "ruin" your country we spend billions to build it back up and give them a government that isn't a dictatorship, Ever heard of japan? They might not be allowed to build a military but there economy is off the charts.