Canon and non-canon scenes?

[harrie]

Originally Posted by Woodsprite

...The novel is a prequel.

I thought it will be both - prequel and the movie story (including off-camera scenes (deleted scenes?) and deeper character insights).

[EywaBlessMe]

I think a good measure of canonicity (sp?) should be whether it adds or subtracts from the story. The sturmbeest hunt? Adds. Neytiri's sister? Subtracts.

[Ashen Key]

Originally Posted by EywaBlessMe

I think a good measure of canonicity (sp?) should be whether it adds or subtracts from the story. The sturmbeest hunt? Adds. Neytiri's sister? Subtracts.

Interesting. Just curious, why do you say that Neytiri's sister subtracts? I thought it added so much depth and backstory - much needed depth and backstory, even.

[Banefull]

Anything in the CE cut is definitely cannon. The videogame is definitely not. As for the deleted scenes it comes down to a case by case basis. Some of the deleted scenes do interfere with the movie. For example, the challanege scene interferes with the movie because it replaces the knife fight (not those sticks). I would interpret this to mean that the Jake actually had a knife fight with Tsu'tey; however, that the Navi do have some form of issuing a formal challenge using those oddly shaped weapons.

[Human No More]

Exactly. The SE and CE are canon, I consider the deleted scenes canon UNLESS they contradict the actual film (then they are just alternate versions that were discarded - personally, the entire concept and execution of that scene just didn't fit to me anyway). Again, the survival guide, I consider canon, as it doesn't contradict anything in the film (apart from the mistakes in the Na'vi language, but canon in the language is what Paul Frommer says).
The game is certainly not canon, although I guess that a few things (places, weapons) COULD be considered canon since they aren't actually contradicting anything.

[Ashen Key]

Originally Posted by Human No More

The game is certainly not canon, although I guess that a few things (places, weapons) COULD be considered canon since they aren't actually contradicting anything.

Same here, by and large. It's useful for cherry-picking for world-building and things (and also images for visuals) but other than that? I tend to ignore it.

[harrie]

Originally Posted by Ashen Key

...but that comment about the Na'vi not knowing how to lie? That I ignore, because it makes little sense and has unfortunate implications and I personally dislike it. And it was in a deleted scene....

That was already in the theatrical cut. I remember, somewhere in the training montage as a narrative from Jake "they don't even have a word for 'lie'". So it's canon.

[Human No More]

Not having a word is not the same as not understanding the concept.

[Ashen Key]

Originally Posted by harrie

That was already in the theatrical cut. I remember, somewhere in the training montage as a narrative from Jake "they don't even have a word for 'lie'". So it's canon.

*crinkles nose* Where? I've watched the movie a couple of times, with subtitles, and I've never seen it.

And like HNM has said - not having the word doesn't mean they don't have the concept, anyway. So, in my stories, maybe I will have them not have a word that directly translates as lie, but they sure as hell have the concept. I cannot fathom a complex society of sapient beings that cannot understand what the average four-year-old human child does. Hell, what a number of animal species on Earth understand, even if they lack the language to explain it. Sounding a warning alarm so the troop will scatter so that they can pick up the best fruit, as an example.

[harrie]

Originally Posted by Human No More

Not having a word is not the same as not understanding the concept.

you're right, intelligent lifeforms should know the concept of not telling the truth or at least concealing the truth.
In the script and in the deleted scene it is also said as: "they don't even have a word for 'lie'" and not that they don't know the concept of lying (in the discussion Jake-Grace in the link container before the dream hunt).
Maybe they know the concept, but the way it is told suggests that they usually don't lie. Maybe due to their way of life and the connection to Eywa they don't lie. Perhaps they sometimes tell only parts of the truth without actually lying.

@Ashen Key:
I remember it from my first cinema viewing as a background narrative from Jake. I don't remember exactly when it was, somewhere between the start of his training and becoming one of the People.

[LOVEavatar]

The "They don't even have a word for lie" line is from the deleted scene when Jake reveals the truth for Grace and Norm that he's undercover for Quaritch, right before the Dream Hunt.

[ScottWashburn]

I don't consider the Avatar Survival Guide to be canon. It wasn't written by Cameron after all. There's some useful stuff in it, but I tend to pick and choose from it. For example, I dismiss the faster-than-light communications system it claims exists because 1) it's not mentioned at all in any version of the movie and 2) unlike pretty much everything else in the movie it has no scientific basis. It's just hand-waving like transporters and hyperdrives.

[harrie]

Originally Posted by ScottWashburn

....For example, I dismiss the faster-than-light communications system it claims exists because 1) it's not mentioned at all in any version of the movie ....

However, there is a scene that points to instant communication. Quarich says to Jake (before he becomes one of the People): "You will get your legs back, I just got corporation's approval. I'll have you on a shuttle tonight." This would not be possible without superluminal communication (otherwise 2 x 4 = 8 years for an answer).

[Sothis]

Originally Posted by harrie

However, there is a scene that points to instant communication. Quarich says to Jake (before he becomes one of the People): "You will get your legs back, I just got corporation's approval. I'll have you on a shuttle tonight." This would not be possible without superluminal communication (otherwise 2 x 4 = 8 years for an answer).

Good point. Another sign of superluminal comms is Selfridge yelling at Quaritch: "I can have your ass in one phone call!" And I think Pandorapedia says that the superluminal communications are made possible by "quantum entanglement," but that the bit rate is low. So there IS a "scientific basis." Whether you like that explanation or not is a different matter, but it's on Pandorapedia, which I usually consider to be canon unless I have a strong reason not to.

For me, I have a canon hierarchy from most-gospel to least-gospel. At each tier, everything is considered canon unless it contradicts something in a higher tier. So, for example, the deleted-scene staff fight between Jake and Tsu'tey I consider non-canon because it directly replaces the version of the fight we see in the theatrical release. Whereas the dreamhunt deleted scene I consider canon because it doesn't contradict anything in the movie; it was simply skipped over.

My hierarchy goes something like this:
- Original theatrical release
- Special edition re-release
- Collector's edition extended cut
- Collector's edition deleted scenes
- Movie script
- Pandorapedia / Activist Survival Guide
- Video game (for world details only, not events)
- Scriptment (where Jake is "Josh")

[Sothis]

Originally Posted by Ashen Key

And like HNM has said - not having the word doesn't mean they don't have the concept, anyway. So, in my stories, maybe I will have them not have a word that directly translates as lie, but they sure as hell have the concept. I cannot fathom a complex society of sapient beings that cannot understand what the average four-year-old human child does. Hell, what a number of animal species on Earth understand, even if they lack the language to explain it. Sounding a warning alarm so the troop will scatter so that they can pick up the best fruit, as an example.

The first time I read "they don't even have a word for lie; we had to teach it to them" in the script, it bothered the hell out of me, for basically the reasons you describe. Any rational, complex being of human intelligence ought to have the concept of lying, I thought. It felt like just a contrived, anvilicious way of going "ooooh, look how perfect and morally superior the Na'vi are -- they don't even have a word for 'lie!'" and it didn't feel believable to me, at first.

But then I had a realization that suddenly made this point a lot more plausible, which is this: although the Na'vi are very human-like in many ways, they have tsaheylu.They can directly access another person's brain. They can directly access a shared, collective network of consciousness through the trees. We shouldn't underestimate the societal implications of that. I think it's easy for us to take our mental privacy and autonomy for granted, because we don't have tsaheylu.

Think about it: it's physically impossible for a Na'vi to willfully and knowingly tell a direct lie to her mated partner -- however small -- because every time you make tsaheylu, your partner can literally read your thoughts. And some fans have speculated that sharing tsaheylu -- although very special and intimate -- isn't necessarily limited to married couples. i.e. some have imagined mothers sharing tsaheylu with their children when they're infants or young toddlers. So no lying to your parents during your formative years, either. And we also don't know how much information is transferred and shared when multiple Na'vi make tsaheylu with the same Tree-of-Voices, for instance.

So this might not be a case of choosing not to lie because they're "too good" for that, but more a case of never learning how to lie in the first place because it just doesn't make rational sense in a world where tsaheylu exists. As others have said, this doesn't mean the Na'vi don't have concepts of dishonesty, treachery, or deception in their society, they just don't have a word for "to lie," which is MUCH more precise -- to willfully and knowingly speak untruths with an intent to deceive another.

With all this in mind, I can believe that the Na'vi wouldn't have a word for "lie." Also, from personal experience, I don't think the ability to lie is something we're born with, though virtually everyone learns at a young age. I distinctly remember the first time it consciously occurred to me that, when someone asks you a direct question you don't like, one of your options is to invent a fake answer (as opposed to simply refusing to answer). It was such an epiphany for me that I still remember the incident, even though I was maybe 5 when it happened.