Canon and non-canon scenes?

[ScottWashburn]

Originally Posted by harrie

However, there is a scene that points to instant communication. Quarich says to Jake (before he becomes one of the People): "You will get your legs back, I just got corporation's approval. I'll have you on a shuttle tonight." This would not be possible without superluminal communication (otherwise 2 x 4 = 8 years for an answer).

Corporate approval could just mean Selfridge's okay and a memo that would go with Sully back to Earth. After all, on Pandora Selfridge IS the corporation.

As for the other point about Selfridge's statement about having Quaritch fired with one phone call. 1) it was in a deleted scene. 2) it's pretty obvious that Selfridge never really got the idea that he was actually on another planet 3) it was just force of habit.

I'll stick with no FTL communications because it's just so much more interesting that way.

[Banefull]

Originally Posted by ScottWashburn

For example, I dismiss the faster-than-light communications system it claims exists because 1) it's not mentioned at all in any version of the movie and 2) unlike pretty much everything else in the movie it has no scientific basis. It's just hand-waving like transporters and hyperdrives.

Whether humans of the 22nd century would have FTL communications is up for grabs. It may be possible using Quantum Entanglement. Note that by itself, quantum entanglement cannot be used to transmit information; however, you can use quantum entanglement in conjunction with a classical signal to achieve something similar to Quantum teleportation which has already been done in laboratories on a particle by particle basis (i.e. we are teleporting a radio signal) We already employ the concept of entanglement in quantum computers; however, they require very expensive exotic materials and must be kept in temperatures close to absolute zero. They are not practical yet, but potentially are much faster than silicon-based computers by virtue of basic design.


A picture of a quantum computer.

It is definitely possible and feasible within the given time frame but I would imagine that the bandwidth would be extremely low as measuring the states of so many particles is a very time/cpu intensive process.

[Ashen Key]

Originally Posted by Sothis

But then I had a realization that suddenly made this point a lot more plausible, which is this: although the Na'vi are very human-like in many ways, they have tsaheylu.They can directly access another person's brain. They can directly access a shared, collective network of consciousness through the trees. We shouldn't underestimate the societal implications of that. I think it's easy for us to take our mental privacy and autonomy for granted, because we don't have tsaheylu.

*nodnods* It IS something to be played with - and also you mention mental privacy, which is a very interesting thing to ponder with them hooking up with the trees as well as each other. Not to mention their ears and tails moving to convey tension, which would happen when one lies unless one is very good at distracting oneself, or is confident in the lie. So, I do agree there is truth to the statement, and the societal implications are interesting to tease out.

I just don't think it should be taken to mean 'they are always, utterly, completely honest and upfront', which is UNFORTUNATELY the way a lot of fandom have taken it, and the deleted scene never clarifies on the point (even if I do imagine Norm mentally going 'well, when you say they have no word for LIE', because he is an academic at heart).

Also, there is Neytiri's "I trusted you" - it seems like a very human thing to say, like there was the possibility of lying/deception, and she trusted him to be honest.

And also, yeah, it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth, unless I do a LOT of twisty backstory and world-building things.

[ISV Venture Star]

Originally Posted by ScottWashburn

unlike pretty much everything else in the movie it has no scientific basis. It's just hand-waving like transporters and hyperdrives.

Oe mllte. There's a lot of 'iffy' stuff in both this and Pandorapedia. I'm hoping JC will clarify things in the novel.

BTW, anyone who loves both science and Avatar has to listen to this if they haven't already done so.


is true = lu ngay
is untrue (not is true) = ke lu ngay

[Human No More]

The FTL communications are in the survival guide, which is canon (minus the language parts), and they are based on a real effect which has been demonstrated, 140 years is easily a large enough margin to develop that into something workable.

Originally Posted by ISV Venture Star

BTW, anyone who loves both science and Avatar has to listen to this if they haven't already done so.

Interesting

[SnowRider]

Originally Posted by AC130StandingBy

I haven't watched the CE cut just yet, but I have viewed some of the unfinished scenes. With so much content, what should be considered canon and what shouldn't?

I feel that the CE cut of the movie can be considered canon (the sturmbeest hunt, Sylwanin), but the unfinished scenes (Norm and Trudy relationship) aren't. Any other opinions?

This is an interesting thread.

My take on the thread's topic is basically this. The Collector's Edition (extra 16 minutes added) is the most canonical of the three versions of the movie, followed by the Special Edition (the August rerelease), followed by the original theatrical release.

Then, the Activist Survival Guide is also canon, in my view, because even though it's not written by James Cameron, I am quite certain he had final word on what went in it and therefore, it must bear his imprimatur as "Official" Avatar canon.

Finally, the deleted scenes, I pretty much agree those that don't contradict the three versions of the movie should be considered canon.

Those scenes that do contradict the three theatrical versions are not canon, in my opinion.

In regards to the point above, one of the deleted scenes shows a different version of the escape sequence than is shown in all three versions of the film.

In my fanfic, Trudy Chacon does something that is not in the escape sequence shown in the three versions of the movie.

(specifically, she does something right after Max opens the cell door and when we see them running down the hall)

The deleted scene that is different from the three versions of the movie would make what I needed Trudy to do quite impossible, so I ignored that deleted scene in order to make my fanfic work.

Basically, I needed Trudy to do something that isn't seen in the escape depicted on film, but would be plausible and the deleted scene nixed that.

So, I ignored it, and fortunately for me, so did James Cameron when he put the Collector's Edition together for the Blu-Ray release last month.

[T-1000]

Originally Posted by harrie

I consider the deleted scenes canon, since they don't contradict with the movie. There is only one contradicting deleted scene where the 2nd valkyrie shuttle is seen in the battle (flying on the port side of the first one). The ASG could also considered to be canon, but the game not, since the storyline is not fixed and even the gender of characters can be selected (some things like the existence of the Tipani clan or certain locations could still be considered canon. The script is not fully canon, since there are differences to the movie.
The official novel by JC would be canon, but other novels by different authors not (Star Trek novels are not canon, there are many of them).
The canonicity of the deleted scenes has to be reconsidered when the novel and sequel comes out (if, e.g. Neytiri is indeed pregnant).

Where in the deleted scenes can you see the 2nd Valkyrie shuttle? I heard someone else say this, but I still missed it when I looked for it (I could be going blind?)

btw, first post here. Nice to see some discussion about some of the science concepts that fed the film

[harrie]

I don't like the concept of only one Na'vi language (mentioned in the Blu-ray Pandorapedia). On Earth, there are so many languages even on small scale. Even small indigenous tribes may have their own language. But maybe the connection to Eywa is the reason for one basic language. Still I don't like this concept. That would be like Star Trek, where all the populations on other planets are uniform. So far, I assumed that only the neighbouring clans that were gathered for the battle have a dialect the Omaticaya understand.
regarding FTL communication: I read that 'teleportation of quantum state' through quantum entanglement is only possible if the information was sent in conventional way before. thus true information transmission is not possible.
@T-1000: I don't remember the title of the scene. It was a scene just before the battle. For a few seconds you can see the shuttle on the left side of the formation of the aircrafts (in template version).
What about hammocks? According to the survival guide they are crafted from rope and twine, according to the BR-pandorapedia they are made from living plants and cultivated. That would better explain the curling up by touching shown in the movie.

[Human No More]

The one language makes sense to me, actually more sense than it would on Earth, with Eywa. The Na'vi share memories across Pandora, which would keep their understanding much closer as it developed.

[Banefull]

Remember that one of the biggest reasons for the development of new languages is isolation. On Earth, it took ancient humans forever to travel from one village to another. Pandora, as a celestial body, is smaller than the Earth and the average size of a Navi means that they have a longer stride and can walk further distances. But these reasons alone cannot explain why. The real reason is that they have flying draft animals. Travel between each tribe is much safer (relatively) and much faster allowing for more frequent contact.

Aslo as HMN stated above me, they can store memories at special sites. I would imagine that this would have a similar effect on language as television did for us. Television actually helped to stabilize the drift in language (memes excluded). There became a standard pronounciation for everything. Likewise with a Navi listening to past memories, some of those memories would be of ancestors speaking and thus the same language would be preserved with little changes.

That said, there probrably are some noticeable dialect differences among tribes.

[ISV Venture Star]

Information welcome to those doubting the canonicity of the ASG

Well, i need to tread lightly on this topic...

The gist of the conversation with Karyu Pawl was that he was never consulted on the ASG, didn't even know it was being written. He bought himself a copy off of Amazon Grin, read it...and was, well, let's go with "disappointed."

But when we were talking about this, he made a statement (and i'm sorry i don't remember the details) that Cameron had no input into or knowledge of the ASG either. It was purely a Corporate decision to push more merchandise out the door.

***to the others who were at the Ultxa Haryuä, anybody remember more of this conversation? Also, mods, feel free to redact this as necessary if there's any concern for Karyu Pawl's good standing with Fox***

[Human No More]

Interesting, but I already said that the language in it was not official (Paul Frommer is the only canon source for the language), and since all the details of what's on Pandora had already been worked out and the book was simply written from the already created detail, I don't see any problem as long as it doesn't contradict anything in Avatar 2.

[harrie]

There is another issue: According to the original release (and SE), "a guy with a gun" killed Tom, according to the CE earth opening and script, it was "a guy with a knife".
According to the post of 'sothis', Tom was killed with a gun, since the original cinema release has the highest 'priority'.
A question for the language experts: What is wrong with the language section in the ASG? The words I know (the important ones) are o.k. In the script, there are more differences (sa'atenuk vs. sa'nok or shahaylu vs. tsahaylu).

[Human No More]

I noticed that part too, I guess I just rationalised it as that more than one weapon could be used. I agree about the original version taking precedence there.

[Grif]

What I view as Avatar became noncannon a long time ago...