This Makes Me Sad.

[Sovereign]

Originally Posted by Shatnerpossum

I think discussions like this, carried out in this manner, hurt the spirit of these forums. Lets try not to create an "us and them" division in our own backyard.

That's the problem though. Discussion of issues that are justified (or not) mostly on moral grounds inevitably creates division.

I have yet to see any moral issue that can be justified solely on logical grounds. Why? Because (assuming mature debaters) everyone disagrees with everyone else's premises. Example in elementary-logic speak:

Assume A.
A -> B
Thus, B, via modus ponens.

Simple enough, right? Wrong. With issues revolving around morals, "A" is usually valid because of a person's particular frame of mind, values and beliefs.

Again, in a mature debate no attacks against the person are lodged. However, disputes on the value of "A" as a premise, by nature, are fired in every direction. Let's look at an example from this thread.

Assume that killing animals for food is wrong. Conclusion: We should not eat meat.

Logically airtight as long as we accept the assumption. However, not everyone accepts that assumption because it is an inherently moral judgment. Thus, we run into a situation of "I reject your assumption" and thus, for the rejecting party, assumption "A" fails to hold, so "B" is not justified via modus ponens. And never mind that in reality there are far more complex premises (both on this issue and others).

Basically, it becomes an endless cycle. The person arguing "A" tries to convince the rejecting party that their rejection of "A" in and of itself is wrong, but that always involves another moral judgment, bringing us back to the original situation with "A."

It's like one of those fun-house mirrors that never ends, hence why while I enjoy these discussions (you never know, someone may say something that changes how you view things), they often go nowhere and can result in hurt feelings.