So you chose to stay, Now what?

[EywaBlessMe]

Dude, you are totally co-opting the final question, and plot point of my Original Fan Fiction My Time On Pandora.

[Human No More]

Originally Posted by harrie

The scientists could return to Earth with the next ISV. They could take their scientific results, maybe they find a cure for Earth's environment.
I think at least some of the scientists have family, and most of them have friends, that they want to return to Earth later.

It really depends... MAYBE some will, but if I had that chance, I would never be gong back. Perhaps they might send research data back to Earth for things that could help the environment there, as they had been doing, but I would say that most want to be there. I doubt Grace was unique in staying there that long - and I really can't see most of the avatar drivers wanting to leave either.

[Woodsprite]

Fact is, if earth is desperate, they're going to do something. They aren't just going to sit around on earth thinking, "Oh dear; we made a flub. Now let's think about it and remorse." No, they're going to find a way to take control back on Pandora. Pandora is the humans' only hope for survival they have, unless they decide to go to other moons (like Cameron alluded to before).

[Human No More]

Perhaps, but that's no need to go all unrealistic and 'needs moar spess mehrens war film lol orbital attacks', this is hard scifi. More likely is a more subtle effort.

[Ashen Key]

Originally Posted by Human No More

Perhaps, but that's no need to go all unrealistic and 'needs moar spess mehrens war film lol orbital attacks', this is hard scifi. More likely is a more subtle effort.

I think we have VASTLY different definitions of 'hard sci-fi' - to me, Avatar is space-fantasy/space-opera with cyberpunk elements, and about as hard sci-fi as Star Trek. That said, not sure if invasion would work or not - if invasion, though, it'd have to be at least six years in the future.

[Woodsprite]

I know the misspelling is for depicting stupidity of the other side, but "spess mehrens" I seriously did not get.

[Ashen Key]

Originally Posted by Woodsprite

I know the misspelling is for depicting stupidity of the other side, but "spess mehrens" I seriously did not get.

Space Marines, I suspect HNM meant.

[Sothis]

Originally Posted by Ashen Key

I think we have VASTLY different definitions of 'hard sci-fi' - to me, Avatar is space-fantasy/space-opera with cyberpunk elements, and about as hard sci-fi as Star Trek. That said, not sure if invasion would work or not - if invasion, though, it'd have to be at least six years in the future.

@Ashen Key: Gonna have to disagree with you for once, Ash. :-p Avatar might not be the hardest of hard sci-fi, but it is much more "hard sci-fi" than Star Trek. Star Trek has "warp drives," and "transporters," and Rubber-Forehead Aliens. By contrast, Avatar hand-waves very little. A scientific explanation is offered for just about everything (whether you buy it is a separate issue). I'd agree that the aesthetic is more space-fantasy/space-opera than you usually see in hard sci-fi, especially when it comes to Pandora. But if I had to classify it as either "soft sci-fi" or "hard sci-fi," I'd go with hard. Though really it's a spectrum, not a binary.

Also, six years is much too soon, even as a minimum. First, it takes 6.75 years for an ISV to make the journey, so that's already a little over. Second, it takes information 4.37 years to travel between Earth and Pandora. So if you assumed that they launched the instant they heard the news in detail, that means they'd get there 4.37 + 6.75 = 11.12 years after the events of the movie. Finally, I'm pretty sure they'd want to debrief Parker and the other survivors in person before they make any important decisions. So I'd say 14 years is the soonest you could expect any kind of envoy to arrive.

@Woodsprite: Personally, I'm gonna agree with HNM that an invasion would not be very realistic. It would be cinematic, and it seems like the obvious response at first glance. But when you examine all the logistical, political, and economical considerations, you'll find lots of compelling reasons why they wouldn't try to take Pandora by force. That's not to say they'll give up, but like you said, there ARE other moons they could potentially develop. And even if they were determined to retake Pandora specifically, an armed invasion simply wouldn't work. Any successful strategy would have to be a lot more subtle.

[X.,.Pandora.,.X]

Max: "So uh Jake....want to introduce me to Beyral?..."

[Ashen Key]

Originally Posted by Sothis

By contrast, Avatar doesn't hand-wave anything. Everything has a scientific explanation.

...yeah, I don't know about that. But I'll just leave that there, I think.

Originally Posted by Sothis

Though really it's a spectrum, not a binary.

That I totally agree with.

Originally Posted by Sothis

Also, six years is much too soon, even as a minimum. First, it takes 6.75 years for an ISV to make the journey. Second, it takes information 4.37 years to travel between Earth and Pandora. So if you assumed that they launched the instant they heard the news, that means they'd get there 4.37 + 6.75 = 11.12 years after the events of the movie. Finally, I'm pretty sure they'd want to debrief Parker and the other survivors in person before they make any important decisions. So I'd say 14 years is the soonest you could expect any kind of envoy to arrive.

...True! But you know me and maths, Sothis. Not the best of pals. Fourteen does make more sense when you put it like that.

And 4.37 years? Where did you get that? I saw somewhere instantaneous communication, but I can't remember where - so, no idea if it's accurate.

[Woodsprite]

Originally Posted by Sothis

@Woodsprite: Personally, I'm gonna agree with HNM that an invasion would not be very realistic. It would be cinematic, and it seems like the obvious response at first glance. But when you examine all the logistical, political, and economical considerations, you'll find lots of compelling reasons why they wouldn't try to take Pandora by force. That's not to say they'll give up, but like you said, there ARE other moons they could potentially develop. And even if they were determined to retake Pandora specifically, an armed invasion simply wouldn't work. Any successful strategy would have to be a lot more subtle.

I never said (recently) that they'd try to take Pandora back by force. I said they'd try to take Pandora back. You can bet your life that the RDA is going to be involved in the sequel.

[Sothis]

Originally Posted by Ashen Key

...yeah, I don't know about that. But I'll just leave that there, I think.

Ahaha, you caught me before I edited it. :-p <3

There are different levels of handwaving, because you can always continue to ask "why" in response to any "science" that is offered, and if you keep digging, you will always reach a level where the answer is handwaved as "it just is." (e.g. Unobtanium's properties are explained, but it's not explained WHY it has those properties.) That level is deeper for some things than it is for others, and it's all relative. I was just saying that compared to Star Trek, Avatar doesn't hand wave much at all, in that its explanations go at least one level deeper before the handwaving starts. I'd say Avatar ranks about a 4 on the Moh scale, give or take depending on your attitude toward the psionic Link and the FTL communications. On the Kheper scale, I'd say it's a "medium," with a similar give or take. By contrast, Star Trek is a 0-1 on Moh and a "very soft" on Kheper.

Originally Posted by Ashen Key

And 4.37 years? Where did you get that? I saw somewhere instantaneous communication, but I can't remember where - so, no idea if it's accurate.

4.37 is the number of light years between Pandora and Earth, so any "normal" data transmission would take that long to reach headquarters. Faster-than-light communication is pseudo-canon and is based on quantum entanglement, but it's very low bit-rate and I don't remember if it's actually instantaneous or just... faster than light. I guess if you really wanted to compress the timeline, you could imagine that an instantaneous message is sent and headquarters responds immediately, but I feel like the low bit-rate wouldn't allow the type of media and information they would want before making such pivotal, costly strategic decisions. I imagine the message might be a simple text-encoding transmission sorta like "Evacuation underway. Total loss. Cancel all incoming."

[Ashen Key]

Originally Posted by Sothis

Ahaha, you caught me before I edited it. :-p <3

<.<

I'm procrastinating on folding laundry and thus refreshing constantly?

>.>

Originally Posted by Sothis

There are different levels of handwaving, because you can always continue to ask "why" in response to any "science" that is offered, and if you keep digging, you will always reach a level where the answer is handwaved as "it just is." (e.g. Unobtanium's properties are explained, but it's not explained WHY it has those properties.) That level is deeper for some things than it is for others, and it's all relative. I was just saying that compared to Star Trek, Avatar doesn't hand wave much at all, in that it's explanations go at least one level deeper before the handwaving starts. I'd say Avatar ranks about a 4 on the Moh scale, give or take depending on your attitude toward the psionic Link and the FTL communications. On the Kheper scale, I'd say it's a "medium," with a similar give or take.

True, and I admit to being a touch more flippant with my Star Trek comment than perhaps I should have been. I'm just...attractive blue humanoid aliens with breasts push it a bit closer to space-fantasy to me. That is actually a very interesting scale - although I'm with that list when it comes to where they've put Avatar. The lack of FTL travel canceled out by the "aliens" and the Hallelujah Mountains. So, yeah, a 'medium' on the Kheper scale.

Originally Posted by Sothis

4.37 is the number of light years between Pandora and Earth, so any "normal" data transmission would take that long to reach headquarters. Faster-than-light communication is pseudo-canon and is based on quantum entanglement, but it's very low bit-rate and I don't remember if it's actually instantaneous or just... faster than light. I guess if you really wanted to compress the timeline, you could imagine that an instantaneous message is sent and headquarters responds immediately, but I feel like the low bit-rate wouldn't allow the type of media and information they would want before making such pivotal, costly strategic decisions. I imagine the message might be a simple text-encoding transmission sorta like "Evacuation underway. Total loss. Cancel all incoming."

...that makes a lot of sense! *rubs head and contemplates timelines* So, Grace really might not have heard about Jake replacing Tom until between two years before he arrived, or just like the other day.

[Sothis]

Originally Posted by Woodsprite

I never said (recently) that they'd try to take Pandora back by force. I said they'd try to take Pandora back. You can bet your life that the RDA is going to be involved in the sequel.

Fair enough, though I don't know if I'd "bet my life" that the RDA will be involved. :-p I'd bet that people from Earth will be involved in at least one of the sequels, though.

[Woodsprite]

May have been more than two years. Light isn't constant in outer space, considering how it can be weighed down by any gravity pulls from other stars it passes (Asimov). The same could exist with radio transmissions, especially if black holes are involved... then it might be possible that the transmission be received faster than 2 years; possibly 1½. We can't be sure.