That's it. I'm moving when I get my degree.

[Ashen Key]

Originally Posted by Woodsprite

So killing another to make one "feel better" is somehow... fine? Two wrongs make a right; end justifies the means. Very logical...

Funny. Last I checked, a foetus wasn't medically concerned a person. It should be up to the MOTHER to decide. If she wants to consider the collection of cells within a person, more the power to her. If she doesn't, she shouldn't be forced to go through pregnancy and birth.

And thank you for being so utterly inconsiderate towards women and girls who suffer the trauma of rape. But, hey, at least I know you don't support my right to my own body!

(But please, please tell me that you at least support universal health-care so the mother doesn't have to bear the financial burden of a child you won't let her abort when still not yet a person. And please tell me you are also in favour of paid maternity leave, and improved adoption and child services, so if she chooses to give the child up because she is unable - emotionally or otherwise - to care of for it, it's not going to be bounced from foster home to foster home.

Please tell me this, because then I at least understand somewhere where you are coming from, beyond holding up a collection of cells as being more important than a living, breathing girl or woman.

Of course, if you are in favour of, say, eleven-year-old children being forced to give birth - which has happened - I've got nothing more to say to you on this topic)

[Woodsprite]

I detect... ill.

(If this goes any further, it should be moved to the debate section.)

Originally Posted by Ashen Key

Funny. Last I checked, a foetus wasn't medically concerned a person. It should be up to the MOTHER to decide. If she wants to consider the collection of cells within a person, more the power to her. If she doesn't, she shouldn't be forced to go through pregnancy and birth.

And thank you for being so utterly inconsiderate towards women and girls who suffer the trauma of rape. But, hey, at least I know you don't support my right to my own body!

I'd like to see some scientific evidence for this. I've seen plenty for the argument of those who believe it's a child that lives, starting from conception. I've personally known quite a few young (and older) women who would disagree with you, concerning how a fetus isn't a living child, especially those whom I have sat with in sympathy and comfort, knowing full-well what abortions can be like, and how they can psychologically hurt the mother more than the rapist ever could have.

Yes Ashen Key, I know what it feels like to personally sit up all night with those who've gone through circumstances where abortions, in almost every single case, were coerced by either the parents, peers, or the abortionist when in doubt in the final hour. I've experienced the first-hand stories of those who were raped (yes, raped), and later deeply regretted what they did to themselves and their babies after going through an abortion.

Yes Ashen, I've gone through what no person should go through concerning counseling of others in such pitiful situations, where they wish they could go back in time and reverse their irreversible decision. You have no idea what it's like to go through such pain, Ashen. No idea. Sometimes I wish I could erase my memory for all the terrible things I've heard such things in this subject. Do you know what it's like to actually be able to feel the small baby scrambling and writhing inside you while it's slowly cut up into pieces at only weeks old? or experiencing the trauma afterward, of watching the pieces being sucked out of you? or how many times I've heard respectable doctors say how it is indeed dangerous at times in the abortion clinic? I can't even begin to imagine what it must feel like to be in any of these women's places.

You insult my intelligence by assuming I'm some sort of "crazy, conservative, 'screw-the-mother'" type who has no care for anything but his own personal motivation to uphold some "faulty" principle that has no meaning except to those who have no clue about the real world. You may not have said it, but I can sense it.

You read an article about a mother who wants to abort a baby because she was raped, and you automatically think it's wrong to prevent such a thing from happening because you think the mother, who's in absolutely no physical danger whatsoever, somehow has a right to dispose of the unwanted even when it's been shown by many sources I've read to be an obvious child that lives inside the mother? I don't know how many secular, nonsensical articles you've read about some "right to choice" that the mother has to declare, "I'm my own woman," but you're mistaken to think that this is a subject that has been hammered down as "fully addressed." It's ironic to note how every mother who claims "right to choice" was never chosen to be arborted, and considering how the child has no choice at all. That's blind, sickening, sexist-feminist hogwash if I ever heard any.

Don't you ever, ever presume to know my intentions about such a sensitive subject again when you haven't the first clue about what you're talking about. Do you hear me?

I have nothing more to add.

[Ashen Key]

I apologize for insulting you, quite sincerely.

But I will not, and never will, apologize for my position on woman's rights and a woman's right to chose to take what control she can over her own body and her own life. So, yes, I do believe on this we have nothing further to say to each other.

[BotanicalMedley]

[QUOTE=Woodsprite;138857]Do you know what it's like to actually be able to feel the small baby scrambling and writhing inside you while it's slowly cut up into pieces at only weeks old? or experiencing the trauma afterward, of watching the pieces being sucked out of you?QUOTE]

But at a few weeks old, would it actually feel anything? It takes longer than a few weeks for it to grow a brain, heart, etc., no? Also, isn't the mother sedated...? And I thought the doctors just cut the umbilical cord. Why would they cut the fetus up?

I'm sorry, I'm still in school and I haven't learned about this sort of stuff yet.

I'm not sure what to think about this. Indeed, I feel it's a natural right for a women have full control of her life, and yet, it's still a living being. *sigh* I'm torn, but I'm leading towards no. If the doctors are absolutely sure that a fetus can feel pain at 20 weeks, I say hell no to abortion at that time because to do that is completely f***ed up.