That's it. I'm moving when I get my degree.

[Icu]

Originally Posted by Isard

it a blatant attack on the separation of church and state.

Regardless of what his reasons are, there are other reasons for thinking abortions are immoral than just religion. For example, my philosophy professor from last semester was not religious but held the belief that abortion was wrong on other moral grounds.

I'm not really trying to say anything specific here, because I know religion is obviously the most cited reason, but I just wanted to point that out.

And I guess this just comes down to if you think abortion is murder. If yes, then since I don't like killing anyone, I'd rather not. If no then personal rights all the way. And again, that's probably more of a philosophical question than anything else. Personally I don't think it's murder so I don't think abortions should be illegal, but hey I know smart, sane people who disagree for legitimate reasons. I guess I'm trying to say that the "other side" isn't necessarily as stupid as you'd like to think they are, even if certain people in the groups are.

[Aaron]

Originally Posted by Icu

Regardless of what his reasons are, there are other reasons for thinking abortions are immoral than just religion. For example, my philosophy professor from last semester was not religious but held the belief that abortion was wrong on other moral grounds.

Absolutely. When you hear of babies being delivered at 21-24 weeks surviving, it does make you think! Babies don't just "appear" at nine months, after all, so where do you draw the line? I, personally (and perhaps despite being non-religious! ), have a very hard time simply accepting anybody's definition of "the beginning," as goes human life, which is why I'm so on-the-fence about this issue. On the one hand, I accept that there may be situations where abortion is the Right Thing. On the other hand, I admit: It's difficult for me to abstractly describe what those situations are.

Rape is obviously terrible, but is also added here mainly as a polarizing factor, as if being in any way anti-abortion is somehow being pro-rape. Clearly that is not the case! It's important, I think, to strive to separate the reason the baby (or fetus, or whatever) is there from what to do about it. You really do have to separate the thinking there, or else you are being morally corrupted by your emotions. My opinion.

[Isard]

Originally Posted by Icu

Regardless of what his reasons are, there are other reasons for thinking abortions are immoral than just religion. For example, my philosophy professor from last semester was not religious but held the belief that abortion was wrong on other moral grounds.

I'm not really trying to say anything specific here, because I know religion is obviously the most cited reason, but I just wanted to point that out.

And I guess this just comes down to if you think abortion is murder. If yes, then since I don't like killing anyone, I'd rather not. If no then personal rights all the way. And again, that's probably more of a philosophical question than anything else. Personally I don't think it's murder so I don't think abortions should be illegal, but hey I know smart, sane people who disagree for legitimate reasons. I guess I'm trying to say that the "other side" isn't necessarily as stupid as you'd like to think they are, even if certain people in the groups are.

But they aren't using them. Their response is "Because God made it happen for a reason" This is a cancer within the Republican party that has almost completely taken over. The past two years they have gone from conservatives, to full on regressive, theocratic regressives. Worse still, it shows no signs of stopping. So, since they can magically make voters come out of the woodwork to support their agendas during voting season (who all dissapear under rocks somewhere in the midwest afterwords) Then they can keep whats becoming a running joke of a country and I'll go somewhere else. Everybody wins. Except the women, minorities, and homosexuals who can't get out of course. Kinda sucks to be them, but nothing else I can do for them really.

[Icu]

Originally Posted by Isard

But they aren't using them. Their response is "Because God made it happen for a reason" This is a cancer within the Republican party that has almost completely taken over. The past two years they have gone from conservatives, to full on regressive, theocratic regressives. Worse still, it shows no signs of stopping. So, since they can magically make voters come out of the woodwork to support their agendas during voting season (who all dissapear under rocks somewhere in the midwest afterwords) Then they can keep whats becoming a running joke of a country and I'll go somewhere else. Everybody wins. Except the women, minorities, and homosexuals who can't get out of course. Kinda sucks to be them, but nothing else I can do for them really.

I wasn't talking about "them" I was talking about the actual issue divorced from all of the politically charged language.

It sounded like not supporting abortion was equivalent to being a "right wing religious nut-job" or whatever and I wanted to point out that this isn't always the case. Sure it is sometimes, but generalizations like that make me uncomfortable to say the least. And on the other side, those who support abortion are not necessarily the murderous, amoral, irreverent people that they can be made out to be, though of course you'd agree with that

Basically it seemed like a really black and white issue (thanks to this politically charged language, which almost forces you to "pick a side") and I think it's a lot more gray than either side would care to admit.

[Isard]

Originally Posted by Icu

I wasn't talking about "them" I was talking about the actual issue divorced from all of the politically charged language.

It sounded like not supporting abortion was equivalent to being a "right wing religious nut-job" or whatever and I wanted to point out that this isn't always the case. Sure it is sometimes, but generalizations like that make me uncomfortable to say the least. And on the other side, those who support abortion are not necessarily the murderous, amoral, irreverent people that they can be made out to be, though of course you'd agree with that

Basically it seemed like a really black and white issue (thanks to this politically charged language, which almost forces you to "pick a side") and I think it's a lot more gray than either side would care to admit.

Abortion comes down to this in the end. Who are you going to tell to go **** themselves, the woman, or the fetus? No middle ground. Unless you're a guy and you don't care either way (or a woman and fixed). That works too.

[Icu]

Originally Posted by Isard

Abortion comes down to this in the end. Who are you going to tell to go **** themselves, the woman, or the fetus? No middle ground. Unless you're a guy and you don't care either way (or a woman and fixed). That works too.

So what would you tell all of the people who disagree with you on philosophical grounds, plenty of whom I'm sure are smarter than any of us? "I know this is your field, but you should just trust me on this one. Take it from me, everything you and your buddies have been thinking is wrong. I promise"

As if they'd just roll over and die. I don't think you're in any position to declare this debate "solved" in your favor. Having an opinion is one thing, but suggesting that everyone who disagrees with you is automatically stupid or definitively "wrong" (as if it were some math problem with a right answer) is quite different. This works from both sides and is exactly why politics is so polarized.

[Banefull]

Originally Posted by Isard

Abortion comes down to this in the end. Who are you going to tell to go **** themselves, the woman, or the fetus? No middle ground. Unless you're a guy and you don't care either way (or a woman and fixed). That works too.

So there aren't any fertile women who are pro-life? You sir are greatly mistaken and its not just a small number either.

If thats not enough then consider this: In the original case of Roe vs Wade that resulted in the legalization of abortion in the U.S., Jane Roe the very woman whose case it was, is now pro-life herself. In fact she heads an organization dedicated to the pro-life side and to reverse what happened during her case. She even wrote a book about her regret of what happened in the past.

[Isard]

Originally Posted by Banefull

So there aren't any fertile women who are pro-life? You sir are greatly mistaken and its not just a small number either.

If thats not enough then consider this: In the original case of Roe vs Wade that resulted in the legalization of abortion in the U.S., Jane Roe the very woman whose case it was, is now pro-life herself. In fact she heads an organization dedicated to the pro-life side and to reverse what happened during her case. She even wrote a book about her regret of what happened in the past.

I think you missed what I said...


I said that if you are pro life, you're siding with the fetus, pro choice, the mother. There is no middle ground here, either its legal to have an abortion, or its not. Or, you could not care either way (aka: A guy, or a woman who will never have the option)