Japanese Tsunami

[auroraglacialis]

Tepco finally after just 2 months (!) has released the data of the reactors during the first days of the incident here:
“Œ–k’n•û‘¾•½—m‰«’n�k”*�¶“–Žž‚Ì•Ÿ“‡‘æˆêŒ´Žq—Í”*“d�Š ƒvƒ‰ƒ“ƒgƒf�[ƒ^�W�b“Œ‹ž“d—Í
(in japanese)
Wow, check out the "Charts" section PDFs. They are analog pen-marks on "continous" paper rolls. Do the computers in the operating room also still work with punched cards?

Anyways, there are now pages of badly scanned paper rolls in these PDFs. Apparently what they say is that Units 1,2 and 3 all had extensive meltdowns (Asahi Shinbun: #Fukushima Reactors 2, 3 Also Had Core Meltdown | EX-SKF) and that all of the pressure vessels in the three blocks have "holes at the bottom" (Two Other Nuclear Reactors Suffer Serious Damage - WSJ.com)

Yeah, that is a surprise ... not!

I am awaiting the translation of the data, then we finally get to know more about what came out of the plants and what is happening with the meltdowns...

EDIT/UPDATE:
Although Tepco does not confirm anything (because they are not sure themselves) they seem to assume an extensive meltdown in blocks 1-3. So the information is starting to unfold...
from the translation:

According to the data, the pressure inside the Reactor 2 RPV (Reactor Pressure Vessel) dropped at 6:43PM on March 15 (JST), and the pressure inside Reactor 3 RPV dropped at 11:50PM on March 16. The integrity of the RPVs were compromised, it is thought, and the pressure went down...
The contaminated water from the Reactor 3 has been found to contain the radioactive materials like technetium that are produced when the nuclear fuel gets damaged, indicating that the melted fuel may have dropped from the RPV into the Containment Vessel.

... remember, that Reactor 3 is the one with MOX fuel.
So its going to be interesting what else is going to become official. Another recriticality? Missing fuel rods from the pools? corium leaving not just the RPVs but also the containment? Let's see....

[auroraglacialis]

UPDATE:
Atomkatastrophe in Fukushima - Der unbemerkte GAU - Panorama - sueddeutsche.de (german newspaper)
Summary: The meltdown of the block 1 reactor is likely to have started before the tsunami came. Up to now the message was always that only the combined earthquake plus massive tsunami lead to the meltdown. If it is true that the Earthquake alone already started the meltdown, this would put severe doubts on the arguments that this was such a unique event....There are doubts that there is any water at all in reactor #3, whose temperature keeps rising for about 2 weeks now.

[Fosus]

Originally Posted by Human No More

You mean the two who died in the tsunami?
Wow, scaremongeringing efforts are really getting pathetic.

LOL It was a (very successful) trolling effort. I made a second post with text "Trolololo" but it has disappeared for some reason. (Deleted?)

Anyway, what is really getting pathetic is your ignorance towards this catastrophe and preposterous use of the "scaremogering card".

Come on man, every single time someone has stated things are getting worse, you've said the same "no way, stop scaremogering". Guess what? So far each and every time things have gone worse! You're always the one telling others they don't know a thing, yet you're wrong all the time yourself. Wake up.


(my apologies for this rather aggressive wake up call, worth a try)

[Fosus]

And meltdowns? I can't say I'm surprised either.

[auroraglacialis]

Yes, Fosus I am surprised at this too. If it does not come from authority (TepCo or at least Japan government), it is called "scaremongering" and when it turns out out be real and the officals have to say that (after 2 months), suddenly everyone "knew all along".

[Fosus]

Originally Posted by auroraglacialis

So its going to be interesting what else is going to become official. Another recriticality? Missing fuel rods from the pools? corium leaving not just the RPVs but also the containment? Let's see....

Didn't at least one of the pools already get ****ed by the explosions?

EDIT: Ah, yeh not official isee

[Human No More]

Originally Posted by auroraglacialis

Tepco finally after just 2 months (!) has released the data of the reactors during the first days of the incident here:
“Œ–k’n•û‘¾•½—m‰«’n�k”*�¶“–Žž‚Ì•Ÿ“‡‘æˆêŒ´Žq—Í”*“d�Š ƒvƒ‰ƒ“ƒgƒf�[ƒ^�W�b“Œ‹ž“d—Í
(in japanese)
Wow, check out the "Charts" section PDFs. They are analog pen-marks on "continous" paper rolls. Do the computers in the operating room also still work with punched cards?

It's called a plotter - it is an easy way to record and compare analogue data (I thought you opposed improvements for their own sake anyway, or does that only hold when the alternative does not give you an opportunity to complain?). Yet again, you are commenting on things you don't understand. Somehow I doubt it's the only monitoring output, anyway.
The data has been available since the start - people have just relied on the fact that most people are not inclined enough to investigate themselves.

Originally Posted by The Register, almost 2 months ago (!)

The internet has allowed people to find things out for themselves, bypassing the Hollywood narrative demanded by TV producers and newspaper editors. For example, this splendidly clear technical explanation of the engineering behind the reactors rapidly received several hundred thousand hits. Subsequent reports of the power company's "secrecy" also disappeared as quickly as they arrived, when it was obvious you could watch the radioactivity levels in real-time.

As for the actual data - don't think I am underestimating it, it's just that you seem not to have any understanding of actual effects.

I'm not sure as to that one article you posted (what point do you say a 'meltdown has begun'? There isn't one. Technically, you can say that at first criticality in that it is now self sustaining in heat generation) - if you mean that heat levels rose, then yes - was that dangerous at the time? No. Yet again, a conclusion through lack of understanding.

One fuel pool has had debris fall into it - that does not cause fuel rods to disappear (or a chain reaction, for that matter). All that needs to be done is ensure it remains within temperature limits.
Fosus: I haven't denied anything (except for a blatant lie, which you even admitted was one - I am just questioning your understanding of both the effects and the technical aspect. While there may not be any qualified nuclear physicists here, I can confidently say that I have a significant understanding of most of the general areas involved. If you think I am denying anything, then maybe this will set it straight: While I am EXTREMELY bothered over all the focus on this (with exactly ZERO deaths) and not on the ~20,000 dead or missing people, I do understand that it is a serious situation and I have always said that it shows that the design was not sufficient, but having an actual understanding of physics and radiation does not suddenly make me deny anything. The only thing I have denied (other than assumptions made about me) was a complete fabrication/misappropriation.

[Fosus]

Human No More.. B.S. That's all. I didn't say you were "denying anything" whatever it may mean. I said that in this case you've been wrong many, many times. Of course you don't want to admit it because you say you're the one "who has a significant understanding of most of the general areas involved" and anyone opposed to you in this (or any other debate it seems) has NO understanding.

And AGAIN, you are wrong.

Originally Posted by Human No More

The data has been available since the start

No, it has not been available from the start. That's a fact. It's been said by the officials that it took them this long to scan and put it together.


You didn't deny anything did you?

Originally Posted by Human No More

.. you say a 'meltdown has begun'? There isn't one. ..

So, are we ****ing around with the terms now? "Meltdown" is considered a situation when the fuel melts it's way though the RPV to the containment vessel, right? Unless you have your own definition of a meltdown, you are denying the fact stated by official data released by Tepco, that three meltdowns have taken place at Fukushima.

Oh, and unless you get your own facts right, please don't tell others they don't have understanding of the subject. It makes you look like a troll.

[auroraglacialis]

HNM, you really managed to bring me to retreat to posting only quotes from translations of official reports, adding little own speculation or educated guessing to it and you still are not happy with it? How more official does it get than if TEPCO says that they had meltdowns, that they know there are holes at the bottom of the RPVs and at least one of the containments and that they cannot exclude that the core actually has dropped out? I mean I do not even fracking have to point to independent nuclear engineers anymore to write about these things.

And I have to agree to Fosus - to state that "While there may not be any qualified nuclear physicists here, I can confidently say that I have a significant understanding of most of the general areas involved." and then denying others here such an understanding is not really somethng that makes a lot of sense. I would say that I can claim a significant understanding also. I have studied physics including particle physics for 2 years at the University before I switched to Geochemistry, had an interest in energy politics and technology and finished university with good grades. Just to boast a bit with educational CVs if that is the kind of "I know it better" game we are playing here. sigh.I also lived through the Chernobyl incident in my early teens, adding to my opinions about public policy, information policy and of course emotional public response. Did you ever have to stay inside for weeks and see the sand in your playground removed because of radiation? Did you live with the fear and uncertainty of what wild or garden foods are safe and drink milk from powder because the fresh milk was contaminated and had to be dumped? So take my input or leave it, but I find it insulting and arrogant to be told by someone I dont know and who does not know me that I lack general scientific understanding or the intelligence to make an educated guess (which is of course all I or you can do without having studied this topic extensively).

EDIT: And this exactly proves something else by the way - the fact that people behave in a certain way in the internet that they would never do if they are face-to-face. The anonymity shield creates a disconnection that allows someone to make such claims without feeling any direct consequences, just as I wrote in another thread that we can drive oil driven cars without thinking because we do not live in Namibia and have to see the rivers swamped in oil...

[Human No More]

Originally Posted by Fosus

Human No More.. B.S. That's all. I didn't say you were "denying anything" whatever it may mean. I said that in this case you've been wrong many, many times. Of course you don't want to admit it because you say you're the one "who has a significant understanding of most of the general areas involved" and anyone opposed to you in this (or any other debate it seems) has NO understanding.

Like complaining about the output format of the temperature data? (ironically, by someone who opposes improvements generally)

And AGAIN, you are wrong.No, it has not been available from the start. That's a fact. It's been said by the officials that it took them this long to scan and put it together.

Depends which data. The way certain people talk, you'd think there was nothing at all, which is a blatant and outright fabrication. There were no live temperatures, certainly, but huge amounts of other data has been available - most people are too lazy and/or ignorant to bother looking for it unless it's fed to them by the news. So no, you are wrong.

You didn't deny anything did you?So, are we ****ing around with the terms now? "Meltdown" is considered a situation when the fuel melts it's way though the RPV to the containment vessel, right? Unless you have your own definition of a meltdown, you are denying the fact stated by official data released by Tepco, that three meltdowns have taken place at Fukushima.

So when has one 'begun' then? It is a state. In that fact, if that IS how you define it, then saying that it had occurred before the tsunami is another outright and blatant lie, implying that it had heated enough to cause damage (which was actually not even the occurrence of events as they DID happen).

I'm sick of this thread. Not only are people complaining about something which has not killed anyone, but they honestly could not care less about 20,000 dead people and just want an excuse to spread some hysteria. I guess because it isn't near you, right?

Aurora, I started writing a long reply here, but I gave up and deleted it. I have had enough of politics here in just about every shape and form, especially when it is used as an excuse to post an agenda everywhere - this is not unique to any one occurrence, but it has made threads like this one, which was originally about a natural disaster that has killed up to 20,000 people unusable. I will just add that maybe you did live during the time the accident at Chernobyl occurred, but that does not make you some expert through that simple fact. Indeed, relatively recently a certain member used that argument before in one thread and got argued down by everyone else for being fallacious and misleading. By making that argument, you are also directly ignoring extreme differences in scale, effect, circumstances, both direct and contributing cause, and many others.

It actually bothers me when threads like this turn into this, because it put me against people that I do like. As much as we disagree on, I can still understand a lot of what you mean, and agree on issues such as protection of the environment. A thread like this make it hard to separate the thread and other discussions, so the argument ends up becoming part of the feeling towards he person. This has always happened, probably always will, and it's one of the reasons I really hate 'debates' on here, because I can't think of anything positive that has happened form one, or even an agreement - people just keep restating their view, and it gets deeper into a spiral of countering until someone stops bothering. I don't want to dislike anyone over this

Since this thread was originally about an actual natural disaster, it has gone far off topic.