Spirituality subforum

[Eltu]

Originally Posted by Human No More

I don't think you got the point. Creating a 'spirituality' subforum would be he ONLY one where out of multiple approaches to understanding, only a single one is allowed. That is not only a bad precedent, but very exclusive if there is not a logical equivalent.

Thus, if a lot of people wishes for a strictly scientific forum, we could add that.

Originally Posted by Human No More

Again, then where would they go?

Everywhere else in the forum? The general section, for instance.

[Human No More]

Originally Posted by Eltu

Thus, if a lot of people wishes for a strictly scientific forum, we could add that.

You've seen the countering demand just as much as I have.

Everywhere else in the forum? The general section, for instance.

That's the issue. 'Spiritualism' being given its own exclusive subforum one, while its logical equal and opposite is thrown into 'general' - both should be, or both should get their own.

I would rather not have 'exclusive zones' for any view. Doing so will simply foster further division between people. As I said before, resentment does not stay within subforum boundaries.

[Human No More]

From IRC: A little long, but I think explains the issues perfectly.

<tbw> I spent fifteen minutes browsing around ToS earlier today and saw nothing but angry stuff everywhere
<~HumanNoMore> that's why I dislike creating subgroups in it that will do nothing but breed resentment.
<&zongtseng> the resentment is why people want the subgroup
<~HumanNoMore> I don't follow.
<&zongtseng> if people respected other's views, this would never even have come up
<tbw> ^
<tbw> that sums it up quite succinctly
<~HumanNoMore> that is why I have always opposed the 'debate' forum.
<~HumanNoMore> there are no 'debates'
<&zongtseng> this has nothing to do with the debate forum
<~HumanNoMore> people like to state their view, nothing more.
<~HumanNoMore> nobody actually discusses it, they just attack the other's.
<~HumanNoMore> who counter, as expected.
<&zongtseng> this whole thing started because of offensive attacks on things that many people feel very deeply about
<&zongtseng> many even dedicate their life to it
<~HumanNoMore> then they should take that up with the invidividual and not ask for a special dissent-free zone.
<&zongtseng> you don't have to understand or agree with it, but attacking those beliefs is just way over the line
<~HumanNoMore> considering some of the things they have said, I don't think so
<~HumanNoMore> one particular insult to my parents springs to mind.
<Icu> that doesn't make either attack okay
<tbw> this sort of behavior is unacceptable on either side
<~HumanNoMore> yes, but people feel entitled to do so becuase they like their view.
<tbw> this is not how friends treat each other, for Eywa's sake
<~HumanNoMore> that's why I say they should be left at the door.
<&zongtseng> and you do the same thing...
<~HumanNoMore> in reponse to how they do the same thing, in response to others, in response to others...
<tbw> HumanNoMore, yes, but that works both ways ... I could swear I've seen a thread or two where someone stated their "spiritual" opinion and was attacked for it
<tbw> it's a vicious circle
<~HumanNoMore> you can not trace back through the entire history of arguments
<~HumanNoMore> but the 'debate' forum made them usual.
<tbw> there *is* such a thing as a civilized debate
<&zongtseng> its a lot more than a thread or two
<tbw> and random attacks don't need to spill out from the debate forum
<&zongtseng> I've seen the "invisible man" thing thrown at several people
<~HumanNoMore> tbw, a vicious circle, exactly - nobody can prove who started it, but nobody can respect the other - for that reason, the entire issue should be left out.
<&zongtseng> and its not really possible to insult someone more than to say that
<~HumanNoMore> what about insulting my mother for being a single parent?
<&zongtseng> (and I don't believe in one btw, it doesn't matter)
<~HumanNoMore> is that not worthy of the same condemnation?
<&zongtseng> and thats related to the spirituality thing how?
<~HumanNoMore> it was done by a rleigious person based on their own ideals.
<&zongtseng> religious, not the same thing
<Icu> yes, it's worthy of the same condemnation
<tbw> well, that's religion, that's something else entirely
<~HumanNoMore> and, it was within the wider context of arguments.
<tbw> that sort of behavior isn't reasonable either
<~HumanNoMore> that both sides feel a sense of entitlement.
<&zongtseng> that person should have gotten an infraction, yes
<&zongtseng> and I'm going to be entirely blunt, there are times you should have gotten them as well, for the sorts of things you say to "spiritual" people
<~HumanNoMore> that sense of entitlement is what leads people to demand their own special subforumwhere they can't be disagreed with, because in their own mind, they are right
<tbw> I think proselytizing atheists are just as bad as proselytizing religious believers
<&zongtseng> thats not why people want it...
<~HumanNoMore> and yes, I should have - but the reason I returned them is because I received the same
<tbw> that's no excuse
<&zongtseng> as an admin, thats just not what should happen
<~HumanNoMore> I remember a certain person making an allegation that people who got raped deserved it.
<&zongtseng> you don't give stuff back, you stay above it
<Icu> ...not...relavent
<tbw> ^^^^^
<~HumanNoMore> staying above it is why there is no need for a subforum.
<~HumanNoMore> becuase people SHOULD be trusted not to being up dangerous topics, and not to argue
<&zongtseng> um... its being asked for because people are NOT staying above it
<tbw> ^^^^^^^^
<tbw> HumanNoMore, I agree entirely with that last bit
<~HumanNoMore> hence my point about the debate forum creating 'them and us' resentment
<&zongtseng> talking about spirituality is not a dangerous topic...
<tbw> that's the entire *point* of ToS
<~HumanNoMore> and that spills over to other threads.
<~HumanNoMore> and THAT is why more division should not be created.
<&zongtseng> how do you plan to fix it then?
<tbw> though yes, spirituality isn't a dangerous topic (religion can be, but only if you're a jerk about it)
<&zongtseng> because the way things are is destroying the feeling there
<~HumanNoMore> it is when, as has happened before, people have said that it is a solution to all problems
<&zongtseng> so... whats the solution again?
<tbw> HumanNoMore, spirituality isn't a solution to any problems, and if someone says religion is a solution to all problems, then a civil debate can be had
<~HumanNoMore> the solution is not to create either subforum.
<~HumanNoMore> not to create artificial divisions in the userbase.
<&zongtseng> thats not a solution to the problems that caused the request
<tbw> ^
<&zongtseng> ok, there are REAL divisions, right now, forget making artificial ones
<&zongtseng> how are those fixed?
<~HumanNoMore> no, but it patches the problem - yes, the real cause needs addressing
<~HumanNoMore> but creating special subforums runs counter to that.
<&zongtseng> then what are we going to do?
<Icu> stop saying "special"
<tbw> ^
<~HumanNoMore> myself, I'd suggest reminding EVERYONE of their role in keeping people together
<~HumanNoMore> and closing threads when they turn into arguments
<&zongtseng> those aren't answers
<tbw> this includes keeping both religious *and* atheist people in check, right?
<~HumanNoMore> yes, including flamebaiting.
<&zongtseng> closing threads solves nothing, just means people can start an argument to shut off a discussion they don't like
<~HumanNoMore> the philosophy has to be inclusive in reminding people what is in common, not dividing along lines of ways of thinking.
<~HumanNoMore> then the flamebaiting posts are deleted.
<~HumanNoMore> that's sometimes enough, sometimes not.
<tbw> how does the infraction system work?
<Icu> or just that you don't have to agree with someone to respect their opinion
<tbw> ^^^^^^^
<Icu> or respect their right to have an opinion, maybe
<~HumanNoMore> yes, remind people of that.
<~HumanNoMore> exactly.
<Icu> i really do need to go get some food... :p. so I'm going to.
<tbw> bon appetit Icu
<~HumanNoMore> there is no need to create subforums to split people along ideological lines, but instead, to do the following: REMIND people of what's in common, and to be repectful, to delete flamebait rather than allow arguments, and to remind everyone to consider posts on controversial topics very carefully.
<Icu> I expect to return to a massive group hug
* tbw glomps Icu
<Icu> hey! not yet
<Icu> lol
<tbw> oh, oops
* tbw waits patiently
<~HumanNoMore> if that is done, it stands a much better chance of actually restoring the atmosphere without new subforums.
<Icu> ^
<Icu> bbl
<&zongtseng> people have to actually do it though
<tbw> ^
<~HumanNoMore> yes, everyone needs to contribute.
<&zongtseng> and that includes staff people
<~HumanNoMore> but, in principle, would that be a preferable alternative?
<tbw> in principle, that's the ToS I remember
<~HumanNoMore> I've made threads similarly before, so has Eltu - occasionally, divisions DO start to creep up, but they can be repaired.
<&zongtseng> if it worked, and people believed it would
<~HumanNoMore> thank you
<~HumanNoMore> right, posting these logs now.

There is no reason to create subforums to divide the userbase, if we can all remember to be more careful. This isn't the first time it's had to be said to remind people and we ALL need to do it (including us), but it's worked before. There's no need to turn ToS into a battleground.

<~HumanNoMore> we try, or we let things go on as before.
<~HumanNoMore> it needs action aswell.
<~HumanNoMore> that's where EVERYONE comes in.
<tbw> HumanNoMore, using you as an example, I can like and respect you, despite the fact that I was raised in a religious family and you're unquestionably atheist -- so what, it doesn't matter to me, you're still my friend
<~HumanNoMore> exactly - I can say the same about you, SightUnseen, and others
<~HumanNoMore>
<~HumanNoMore> now this is what it should be like.
<&zongtseng> that needs to extend to the forums
<~HumanNoMore> exactly!
<&zongtseng> if you have nothing nice or helpful to say, don't say it
<~HumanNoMore> everyone needs to be reminded of that, and that it's what's in common that matters
<&zongtseng> and yes, that includes criticizing people pointlessly for their beliefs, you're not going to change them
<~HumanNoMore> yep - from both sides.
<~HumanNoMore> and everyone needs to make an effort there.
<tbw> 17:13 <&zongtseng> that needs to extend to the forums
<tbw> 17:13 <~HumanNoMore> exactly!
<tbw> this, this, a thousand times this

[Human No More]

<tbw> but as far as I can tell the spirituality forum was being asked for because it's meant to be a haven, a safe place
<&zongtseng> otheerwise we'd just have one giant forum
<tbw> and if we can make the entire forum a haven again, then I think everyone would be happy
<~HumanNoMore> exactly.
<~HumanNoMore> there's no need to make one for that.
<tbw> if there were loads of spirituality threads cropping up somewhere, then (a) that'd mean people finally feel safe enough to talk about it (from what I'm hearing) and (b) we might want to create a subforum just to keep things organized
<&zongtseng> I didn't agree with creating any number of the subforums we have, but others wanted it, so we did it
<tbw> yeah, I think spirituality-subforum-for-safe-haven versus spirituality-subforum-for-organization are two different points
<tbw> ideally we'd have safe-haven all throughout ToS, and then if people still want a forum just to keep things clean, then that's reasonable
<~HumanNoMore> tbw, EXACTLY.
<&zongtseng> its a lot of nice words, lets see people actually put action behind them
<tbw> ^^^^^^^^^^

As I see it, what is really needed here is to bring back the feeling of the early days, when people felt happier to talk. Nobody needs a subforum to feel safe.
Doing so won't happen overnight, and won't be easy, but the result will be better for EVERYONE and not just specific people - I will say keep an eye out for that soon.

<DL> I realize you're just human and people occasionally have bad days, but I think if you're an admin you should hold yourself to higher standards. you shouldn't let your personal feelings cause issues on the forum.. (not saying HNM, just in general since I haven't personally seen that happen)
<DL> on any site really
<Raiden> DL: Not to sound nasty or anything, but ToS is kind of HNMs baby...if something bad happened to it he'd be heartbroken. You can't ask somebody to do that, unless it's some kind of business venture.
<DL> why not?
<~HumanNoMore> yeah, ToS does keep me alive, I mean that genuinely
<&zongtseng> something bad IS happening to it, thats the point
<Raiden> DL: And this is just IRC. You haven't been around for some of the other things that have happened on the forums that make it more than that.
<tbw> ^^^^^^^^
<~HumanNoMore> these last few days have been very difficult for me.
<~HumanNoMore> and I WANT to fix it.
<tbw> ToS was probably the only thing keeping me alive, at the start of it all
<DL> Raiden, I said NOT just HNM, and not just TOS, but as a general rule on *any* site for *any* admin
<Raiden> DL: It's a personal creation, not a project or business venture. Therefore, he has the right to feel more personal about it if he wants to.
<Raiden> Anyway...
<~HumanNoMore> no, I don't.
<~HumanNoMore> no more than anyone else emotionally invested.

That's all I am. I'm as invested in ToS as any other, and we all need to change this situation.

This isn't an organisational issue - it's one of trust, and feeling at home. THAT is why we need to change the negativity that has entered the forum, and not simply add 'safe zones'.

[X.,.Pandora.,.X]

Woah Zonsteng I live in NC too and I'm fine with it, but if you don't agree with it. Don;t go there to just debate. Leave that in the debate section.

[Pa'li Makto]

As someone who believes in spirituality but is not religious I feel scared to post anything in the technology/science subforum because anything related to anything spiritual is automatically snuffed because it has no evidence..This is allowed to happen yet somehow there is a need to automatically include science with spirituality on a subforum? Can't people see that the nature of science is to question the validity of spirituality? All I see happening is that there will be an arena of science vs spirituality and the scientists will win..
The random thread and hilarious picture thread seems to be more pro atheist..Yet is still allowed even though it can indirectly hurt people.

[Human No More]

The random thread and hilarious picture thread seems to be more pro atheist..Yet is still allowed even though it can indirectly hurt people.

Well, I haven't seen anything on the random thread, but if you think so, raise that as an issue. This is the problem - people just take it in stride and let it influence them, which is what breeds division in people's minds.

On the other hand, you think 'science will win' when the question should be 'win what?' - it isn't a competition.

[Pa'li Makto]

I know it isn't a competition but somehow any topic leads to some people trying to promote their views over someone else's..

[Human No More]

Originally Posted by Pa'li Makto

I know it isn't a competition but somehow any topic leads to some people trying to promote their views over someone else's..

...and that's the issue. Read my recent posts.

Having a subforum specifically for a view won't change that, while changing what has gone wrong with everyone will.

[Pa'li Makto]

How can you change what has "gone wrong" with everyone? Some of us want to discuss a topic that hasn't been well received here of late. I don't see though why it is such a big deal to create somewhere for us to be able to discuss anything spiritual. Other members are welcome to post there but is it so much to hope that people would be objective?

[Moco Loco]

We have been wrong to suppose that our view is better than someone else's. Regardless of whether it is or not, or whether no one's view is ever better than someone else's, regardless of whatever you may think about this issue, we can't do it because it will always lead to fights and never (or very rarely) to someone changing their mind, especially in matters of ideology (which I still firmly believe should have been the subforum).

[Tsyal Makto]

I'm for this subforum. I don't see it as giving a subjective view (as in "pushing" it on people - for example, Taoism or Gaianism are specific views, spirituality is the general school of thought they fall under) more like giving a place to discuss a school of thought if that is what people wish. IMO spirituality as a whole is general enough to justify a subforum. Besides, we already have a science subforum, why not give people the other half of the philosophy coin?

And if you feel like you won't be able to stay civil there, the answer is simple, just don't go. Tbh if you don't have the self control to avoid topics you don't want to be a part of for anything other than trolling, you don't have the maturity to be on forums in the first place.

$0.02. Sorry if anything is redundant to the thread as a whole. I've been gone all Labor Day weekend and am too tired to read through all this right now.

[Pa'li Makto]

Originally Posted by Moco Loco

We have been wrong to suppose that our view is better than someone else's. Regardless of whether it is or not, or whether no one's view is ever better than someone else's, regardless of whatever you may think about this issue, we can't do it because it will always lead to fights and never (or very rarely) to someone changing their mind, especially in matters of ideology (which I still firmly believe should have been the subforum).

That is true..How would the arguers be separated from the other posters though? That's something I would ponder because arguments aren't always on the debate subforum.

[Human No More]

There's never going to be a way to.

If people feel they need to have a special subforum to be what the entire forum should be, then something is very wrong, because of the expectation of 'debates'.

[Pa'li Makto]

Wouldn't you say that given the debates going on over the last few months that the expectation of more debates is a valid worry?

That's just one of the reasons why some of us want a spirituality subforum, alongside the technology and environmental ones. The other reason I can think of is that we can fit our discussions about spirituality somewhere.