Spirituality subforum

[Pa'li Makto]

Just for something interesting I found this on the net. Just excuse this guy's pronunciation of Eywa.

[Eltu]

In response to the above IRC logs:

A subforum does not cause "division" among the members - on the contrary, it allows them to discuss things they are interested in in a structured manner - that's why we have subforums in the first place. The spirituality subforum would decrease division among the members, since it'd prevent flamewars, argues and other things that could create hostility.

And, as a further response - here are the *rest* of the IRC logs:


---

[2011-09-06 01:02:15] <tbw> like, as a whole ... seems to me that none of this rubbish would've been an issue
[2011-09-06 01:02:43] <HumanNoMore>
[2011-09-06 01:03:17] <Eltu> Indeed.
[2011-09-06 01:03:19] <tbw> just my luck, the first several threads I read when pulling up ToS for the first time in a while are all people at each others' throats
[2011-09-06 01:03:20] <Eltu> It's what worries me
[2011-09-06 01:03:35] <Eltu> I simply cannot understand why this can lead to such a huge debate.
[2011-09-06 01:03:39] <tbw> ^
[2011-09-06 01:03:50] <Eltu> It's such a simple matter - try out a new subforum.
[2011-09-06 01:03:58] <Eltu> And yet it's made such a big deal out of.
[2011-09-06 01:04:04] <Eltu>
[2011-09-06 01:04:20] <Eltu> Also, HumanNoMore - I read it. Three times.
[2011-09-06 01:04:21] <tbw> I recognize that there are people on the forums who can't stand people expressing religious or spiritual or whatever views
[2011-09-06 01:04:42] <HumanNoMore> Eltu: becuase we do not want any view to be official.
[2011-09-06 01:04:44] <tbw> but can't we be *friendly* about it?
[2011-09-06 01:05:10] <HumanNoMore> tbw: it's not banned, but officially endorsing it is a complete game changer
[2011-09-06 01:05:12] <tbw> I mean, Avatar's a largely spiritual movie (or maybe it isn't, I haven't seen it in half a year, so I could be wrong)
[2011-09-06 01:05:22] <HumanNoMore> one which would make me uncomfortable having my name associated with ToS.
[2011-09-06 01:05:26] <Eltu> tbw: Depends on interpretation
[2011-09-06 01:05:29] <Eltu> I see Avatar as very spiritual
[2011-09-06 01:05:31] <Eltu> Many other does
[2011-09-06 01:05:35] <Eltu> And many don't
[2011-09-06 01:05:37] <Icu> tree of SOULS
[2011-09-06 01:05:38] <HumanNoMore> much like logic is not offically endorsed either
[2011-09-06 01:05:44] <HumanNoMore> and I am fine with neither.
[2011-09-06 01:06:04] <HumanNoMore> oh, wow, next you'll be pointing out that ther name Pandora is from greek mythology
[2011-09-06 01:06:13] <HumanNoMore> names mean different things to different people.
[2011-09-06 01:06:24] <Eltu> Yeah, and to some people they have spiritual meanings.
[2011-09-06 01:06:29] <Eltu> Not everyone sees Avatar seicntifically.
[2011-09-06 01:06:34] <Eltu> *scientifically
[2011-09-06 01:07:05] <tbw> I certainly don't -- its magic doesn't lie in hard science for me, though that's an interesting bonus
[2011-09-06 01:07:18] <Eltu> 01:04:42 <HumanNoMore> Eltu: becuase we do not want any view to be official.
[2011-09-06 01:07:20] <Eltu> HumanNoMore: I really don't understand that. And even IF people see it as "official", really, what's the big deal? As long as we all get along, I don't see the problem.
[2011-09-06 01:07:33] <tbw> <~HumanNoMore> oh, wow, next you'll be pointing out that ther name Pandora is from greek mythology
[2011-09-06 01:07:39] <tbw> HumanNoMore, are you talking to me when you say this?
[2011-09-06 01:07:48] <Eltu> See, that's what I mean
[2011-09-06 01:07:51] <Eltu> That kind of hostility
[2011-09-06 01:08:06] <Eltu> It may seem like nothing, but it takes place *constantly*.
[2011-09-06 01:08:10] <Eltu> That adds up. Quite a bit.
[2011-09-06 01:08:50] <HumanNoMore> no, Icu.
[2011-09-06 01:09:05] <HumanNoMore> you didn't say anything, tbw.
[2011-09-06 01:10:06] <Icu> just pointing out that the world "spiritual" is in the first definition of "soul". not trying to generalize or anything.
[2011-09-06 01:10:46] <HumanNoMore> first... and only?
[2011-09-06 01:11:09] <HumanNoMore> some people use it to refer to the mental software, which is actually a more apt definition for the context
[2011-09-06 01:11:18] <HumanNoMore> ie. not a flying ghost thing
[2011-09-06 01:11:28] <tbw> HumanNoMore, out of curiosity, do you equate spirituality with organized religion?
[2011-09-06 01:11:36] <HumanNoMore> not all of it, but some.
[2011-09-06 01:11:40] <tbw> do you object to stuff like "feeling a connection with the trees" or what have you?
[2011-09-06 01:11:53] <HumanNoMore> the latter is part of the former as a category.
[2011-09-06 01:11:54] <HumanNoMore> no.
[2011-09-06 01:12:23] <tbw> I'm not particularly interested in organized religion (though, fwiw, I was raised in a religious family and I do feel uncomfortable seeing hostility towards religion as a whole)
[2011-09-06 01:12:24] <Icu> i didn't say it was the only :/
[2011-09-06 01:12:24] <HumanNoMore> but I would just point out that that isn't anyting necessarily supernatural, just an emotion.
[2011-09-06 01:12:43] <Icu> same tbw
[2011-09-06 01:12:48] <HumanNoMore> some people might like to perceive it one way, but that isn't the only interpretation
[2011-09-06 01:12:57] <tbw> but I am interested in the sort of "spirituality" that people seem to want to discuss, and I'm confused as to why there's so much ... going wrong ... here
[2011-09-06 01:13:01] <Eltu> HumanNoMore: Exactly my point.
[2011-09-06 01:13:07] <Eltu> It *isn't the only interpretation*.
[2011-09-06 01:14:19] <Icu> so what should I have for dinner, eh? I've got a car and a credit card....
[2011-09-06 01:14:36] <Eltu> 00:58:10 <Eltu> Ninat
[2011-09-06 01:14:39] <tbw> Icu, have you got an iPhone?
[2011-09-06 01:14:54] <tbw> or android? (was going to recommend an app, but it's not out on android yet)
[2011-09-06 01:15:10] <tbw> or do you avoid smartphones like the plague?
[2011-09-06 01:15:24] <HumanNoMore> Eltu: that is why I have been saying we should have one with a less partisan name, which caters for both sides
[2011-09-06 01:15:35] <tbw> HumanNoMore, how is "spirituality" partisan? that's what I'm not getting
[2011-09-06 01:15:41] <Icu> ^yes
[2011-09-06 01:16:01] <Icu> and neither tbw
[2011-09-06 01:16:03] <HumanNoMore> its presence in the absence of an equivalent opposite implies an official position
[2011-09-06 01:16:08] <HumanNoMore> much like 'environmentalism' does
[2011-09-06 01:16:33] <HumanNoMore> and, again, this would be the ONLY subforum where _only_ a specific way of thinking is allowed
[2011-09-06 01:16:35] <Eltu> HumanNoMore: "Both sites"?
[2011-09-06 01:16:37] <Eltu> *sides
[2011-09-06 01:16:48] <tbw> HumanNoMore, hang on, what? only a specific way of thinking is allowed?
[2011-09-06 01:16:52] <HumanNoMore> yes.
[2011-09-06 01:16:53] <Eltu> And yeah
[2011-09-06 01:16:54] <Eltu> What.
[2011-09-06 01:17:00] <tbw> I thought the idea was "let's have this sort of conversation over in that 'folder' or 'forum'"
[2011-09-06 01:17:06] <HumanNoMore> Eltu has siad t hat things in this subforum must be unscientific only
[2011-09-06 01:17:09] <Eltu> Spirituality can mean a whole lot of different things to different people
[2011-09-06 01:17:16] <HumanNoMore> yes there is no 'scientific only' one.
[2011-09-06 01:17:18] <HumanNoMore> yet*
[2011-09-06 01:17:20] <Eltu> There is hardly *one* single way of thinking
[2011-09-06 01:17:40] <Eltu> HumanNoMore: for the last time, I see no problems in adding a "scientific only" subforum if there's a demand for it
[2011-09-06 01:17:45] <tbw> HumanNoMore, would you be satisfied if there were a "rationalist" forum to counter the "spiritual" forum?
[2011-09-06 01:17:55] <HumanNoMore> Eltu, THERE IS DEMAND, which you ignore
[2011-09-06 01:17:56] <HumanNoMore> and yes.
[2011-09-06 01:17:59] <Eltu> I don't ignore it
[2011-09-06 01:18:05] <Eltu> I just said
[2011-09-06 01:18:10] <Eltu> I *see no problems*.
[2011-09-06 01:18:13] <HumanNoMore> although I would prefer a single one where people can use their own way as implied by the thread
[2011-09-06 01:18:29] <tbw> well, what sorts of conversations would happen in the rationalist forum?
[2011-09-06 01:18:30] <Eltu> HumanNoMore: Yeah... that's called ToS, and it isn't working out all that well atm.
[2011-09-06 01:18:34] <HumanNoMore> that way the whole issue of implicit suppoty can be avoided.
[2011-09-06 01:18:49] -!- zongtseng [~zongtseng@AE7CF595.B8ECA5C1.610C3CA2.IP] has joined #TreeOfSouls
[2011-09-06 01:18:49] -!- mode/#TreeOfSouls [+ao zongtseng zongtseng] by ChanServ
[2011-09-06 01:18:50] <Neytiri> Zola'u niprrte' ma zongtseng, oel ngati kameie. Ngaru lu fpom srak?
[2011-09-06 01:18:51] <HumanNoMore> tbw, for one I'v used as an example, about how the placebo effect affects human senses
[2011-09-06 01:18:53] <Icu> :O
[2011-09-06 01:18:56] <Icu> hi zongtseng
[2011-09-06 01:19:06] <tbw> hey zongtseng
[2011-09-06 01:19:08] <HumanNoMore> e.g. give people non alcoholic beer, tell them it's alcoholic, and watch them act drunk
[2011-09-06 01:19:16] <HumanNoMore> because they expect it.
[2011-09-06 01:19:23] <tbw> HumanNoMore, doesn't that seem more suited for "general discussion" though?
[2011-09-06 01:19:30] <tbw> I mean, that's "hey, random interesting scientific stuff"
[2011-09-06 01:19:33] <Eltu> What tbw said.
[2011-09-06 01:19:39] <tbw> which is cool, and everyone should be interested in it
[2011-09-06 01:19:43] <HumanNoMore> no, because it related to 'spirituality', just from a logical perspective
[2011-09-06 01:19:45] <tbw> it doesn't run counter to spirituality
[2011-09-06 01:19:54] <HumanNoMore> it relates to it though

[Eltu]

IRC conversation continued:

---

[2011-09-06 01:19:56] <Eltu> HumanNoMore: Then it isn't related to the spirituality *subsection*.
[2011-09-06 01:20:09] <Eltu> I've mentioned *so* many times what this section would include.
[2011-09-06 01:20:14] <Eltu> And yet you ignore that
[2011-09-06 01:20:16] <HumanNoMore> Eltu: so there will be only one subsection where only a specific view is allowed.
[2011-09-06 01:20:18] <tbw> HumanNoMore, how? I mean, sure, if you have some sort of religion that says "the placebo affect doesn't exist", then you're funny in the head
[2011-09-06 01:20:25] <tbw> but that's not what people want to discuss
[2011-09-06 01:20:26] <HumanNoMore> that is hugely exclusive to people who don't share it.
[2011-09-06 01:20:28] <Eltu> HumanNoMore: But if you really has such a huge problem with what's discussed in there - why not just stay out of it entirely then? I mean, as long as the community is happy...
[2011-09-06 01:20:33] <zongtseng> every subsection has a topic...
[2011-09-06 01:20:34] <HumanNoMore> Eltu: so there will be only one subsection where only a specific view is allowed.
[2011-09-06 01:20:35] <HumanNoMore> that is hugely exclusive to people who don't share it.
[2011-09-06 01:20:43] <HumanNoMore> it sets a bad precedent.
[2011-09-06 01:20:48] <zongtseng> if you post about books in movies, its going to get moved
[2011-09-06 01:20:52] <Eltu> HumanNoMore: Yeah, and you're only allowed to talk about books in the books subsec-
[2011-09-06 01:20:53] <Eltu> Yeah.
[2011-09-06 01:20:55] <Eltu> What zongtseng said.
[2011-09-06 01:21:01] <Icu> in the same way music forum is exclusive to people who like music. there's only a problem if you think about it in black and white terms
[2011-09-06 01:21:01] <tbw> HumanNoMore, how is it exclusive? I'd view it more as "hey, this is what I believe or how I feel"
[2011-09-06 01:21:08] <HumanNoMore> again, but what if there was no 'books' section, just a 'lord of the rings' section?
[2011-09-06 01:21:17] <tbw> if it's to foster friendly discussion, then that's fine, and that's what we had back in the old days
[2011-09-06 01:21:18] <zongtseng> um, why would that happen?
[2011-09-06 01:21:19] <HumanNoMore> would posts on other books be 'off topic'?
[2011-09-06 01:21:23] <HumanNoMore> that's what this is
[2011-09-06 01:21:27] <HumanNoMore> it's a single subset of something
[2011-09-06 01:21:32] <Eltu> I still don't understand what you mean there, HNM
[2011-09-06 01:21:37] <HumanNoMore> oh for fu-
[2011-09-06 01:21:39] <zongtseng> you're comparing spiritual ideals to a SINGLE BOOK? REALLY?
[2011-09-06 01:21:45] <Eltu> What zongtseng said.
[2011-09-06 01:21:49] <HumanNoMore> 'spirituality' is a subset of ways of perception
[2011-09-06 01:21:57] <zongtseng> something that the vast majority of the world holds, in one way or another
[2011-09-06 01:22:01] <HumanNoMore> so making a subforum only for it excludes others
[2011-09-06 01:22:10] <zongtseng> no, it doesn't
[2011-09-06 01:22:13] <HumanNoMore> I'd dispute that.
[2011-09-06 01:22:19] <HumanNoMore> one book series is a subset of all books
[2011-09-06 01:22:23] <zongtseng> I don't like programming/development
[2011-09-06 01:22:28] <HumanNoMore> so only having a subforum for that series excludes other books
[2011-09-06 01:22:30] <zongtseng> does that mean that having that forum excludes me?
[2011-09-06 01:22:34] <zongtseng> I demand it be removed immediately
[2011-09-06 01:22:34] <Eltu> Yeah, exactly.
[2011-09-06 01:22:38] <Eltu> @ zongtseng
[2011-09-06 01:22:50] <HumanNoMore> no, becuase there's a differened between no interest' and 'interest but with a countering viewpoint'
[2011-09-06 01:22:59] <zongtseng> for that matter, I won't be able to go to the 2012 meetup
[2011-09-06 01:23:05] <HumanNoMore> you wouldn't be unwelcome because you preferred Python over C++
[2011-09-06 01:23:07] <zongtseng> I'm being excluded, remove it please
[2011-09-06 01:23:12] <HumanNoMore> no, becuase there's a differened between no interest' and 'interest but with a countering viewpoint'
[2011-09-06 01:23:13] <HumanNoMore> you wouldn't be unwelcome because you preferred Python over C++
[2011-09-06 01:23:29] <Eltu> You're reading WAY too much into this, HNM.
[2011-09-06 01:23:34] <Eltu> Again,
[2011-09-06 01:23:34] <Eltu> 01:20:28 <Eltu> HumanNoMore: But if you really has such a huge problem with what's discussed in there - why not just stay out of it entirely then? I mean, as long as the community is happy...
[2011-09-06 01:24:57] <zongtseng> it still really bothers me to see you compare such a vast topic like spirituality, with... a specific kind of music, or a specific book
[2011-09-06 01:25:08] <zongtseng> the scope is so entirely different in those examples
[2011-09-06 01:25:08] <HumanNoMore> again, I could not in good conscience admin a site that implicitly supports such a view
[2011-09-06 01:25:14] <tbw> HumanNoMore, I think I'm missing something. given that "spirituality" doesn't mean "organized religion", what kind of countering viewpoint could even exist?
[2011-09-06 01:25:16] <zongtseng> it doesn't support any view....
[2011-09-06 01:25:26] <HumanNoMore> if it had an equivalent for logic, there would be no issue
[2011-09-06 01:25:28] <tbw> it's, "I feel a connection to the trees" or "well that's impossible because of XYZ"
[2011-09-06 01:25:29] <Eltu> You *are* in a minority here - 3 out of 4 admins agree that the subforum should be added, and given the thread and talks in the past, most of the community seems to, too.
[2011-09-06 01:25:29] <Eltu> I'm not saying you have to agree with the descision - but cannot you respect the community's wishes?
[2011-09-06 01:25:33] <Eltu> @ HNM
[2011-09-06 01:25:39] <zongtseng> the whole forum is the equivalent...
[2011-09-06 01:25:43] <HumanNoMore> tbw: it's a subjective rather than objective view
[2011-09-06 01:25:47] <Eltu> It may seem harsh - but as a final solution, it's not unthinkable.
[2011-09-06 01:25:53] <zongtseng> but by all means, create another subforum and call it "logic"
[2011-09-06 01:25:57] <HumanNoMore> again: this will create ONLY ONE subforum where only a single specific view is allowed
[2011-09-06 01:26:02] <zongtseng> done deal then? "spirituality" and "logic"
[2011-09-06 01:26:06] <zongtseng> Ill go make them
[2011-09-06 01:26:07] <HumanNoMore> there will not be one for logic only.
[2011-09-06 01:26:31] <HumanNoMore> well, we still haven't heard comment on possible names
[2011-09-06 01:26:37] <tbw> but... how is only one specific view allowed plausible?
[2011-09-06 01:26:43] <tbw> spirituality is an intensely personal thing
[2011-09-06 01:26:46] <zongtseng> its not
[2011-09-06 01:26:52] <HumanNoMore> one specific view system then.
[2011-09-06 01:26:59] <Eltu> What tbw said.
[2011-09-06 01:27:00] <HumanNoMore> subjective vs objective
[2011-09-06 01:27:02] <zongtseng> its not a specific view system....
[2011-09-06 01:27:05] <HumanNoMore> opinion vs evidence
[2011-09-06 01:27:08] <zongtseng> there are literally thousands of views in that
[2011-09-06 01:27:15] <tbw> spirituality doesn't exclude objectivity, though, does it?
[2011-09-06 01:27:15] <HumanNoMore> they all have common elements.
[2011-09-06 01:27:21] <zongtseng> no they don't
[2011-09-06 01:27:30] <zongtseng> again, you're really confusing religion and spirituality
[2011-09-06 01:27:38] <HumanNoMore> then THAT is why it needs a better name.
[2011-09-06 01:27:44] <tbw> I mean, I'm a computer science major, for Eywa's sake, but that doesn't mean I can't, say, "feel right" when I'm in the woods
[2011-09-06 01:27:52] <HumanNoMore> tbw, I can't either
[2011-09-06 01:27:52] <tbw> or "feel some connection to something"
[2011-09-06 01:27:57] <zongtseng> no one else is confusing it
[2011-09-06 01:27:59] <HumanNoMore> but for me, that's an emotion, not something magic.
[2011-09-06 01:28:01] <Eltu> HumanNoMore: So far I haven't seen *you* suggest another name, and everyone else seems to be fine with the suggested one.
[2011-09-06 01:28:05] <zongtseng> spirituality is the proper name, thats what the topic would be
[2011-09-06 01:28:14] <Eltu> Indeed.

[Mika]

Ok .. I want to give this some thought as I digest the information ....

For now a quote:

"With your permission, I will speak now. You would honor me by translating."

To all my fellow Spiritualist brothers and sisters~

The Sky People have sent us a message...
(the purely scientific only fans have sent us a message)

that they can take whatever they want.
(that only scientific topics can be discussed)

That no one can stop them.
(as they can set and decide the policy on this forum)

Well, we will send them a message.
(Its time to speak up loudly now)

You ride out as fast as the wind can carry you.
(Let your Spirits and Spirituality carry you)

You tell the other clans to come.
(Send the Message to other forums)

Tell them Toruk Makto calls to them!
(The Avatar Symbol of the Great Spirit)

You fly now, with me! My brothers! Sisters!
(Let your Spirits soar)

And we will show the Sky People...
(and we will show the purely Scientific People)

that they cannot take whatever they want!
(That they cannot arbitrarily decide for all of us)

And that this... this is our land!
(That we all make this forum and Avatar embraces a Spiritual Way of Seeing the World)

[Eltu]

That warms my heart to read - as this quote has always been synonymous with change, ever since ToS was founded.

[Pa'li Makto]

*Smiles at reading Mika's Quote* That stirs my heartstrings.

I'm not sure what Human No More is trying to argue, honestly I've tried but I just get more and more confused..Why don't we have the spiritual thread where people who aren't spiritual can add stuff in to if they want, that's no problem.
However, I see this blowing way out of proportion, to look at this logically. Most of the admins are in favour of having a spiritual sub forum, there has been demand for it, there is no privatization of this subforum and anyone can view and add stuff..So what's the problem..We should of just put in this subforum ages ago and the conflict could of been avoided. A select few shouldn't can something...especially if it could keep members here happily.

[Eltu]

I completely agree, Pa'li, with everything you've said - especially blowing this all out of proportion. As mentioned in the IRC logs above, I really do not understand why it's such a horrible thing to some. It's just a subforum like any other.

[Pa'li Makto]

Thanks Eltu, I agree and Tbw and zongtseng make sense as well. If the majority of us see no problem and we can happily post somewhere there really shouldn't be any of this debate. Spirituality helps some of us in our daily lives and we can't discuss it on this forum..It's hurtful because it's the very essense of both Avatar and the Na'vi and humanity and yet we're gagged from discussing it because of one strong disagreer.

[Advent]

I honestly don't see what all the bull**** is about. I see atheists often showing their views on this forum, sometimes insulting the religious users here. Nobody really cares when that happens. And I can imagine the more spiritual people here don't feel completely welcome either.

It's just a subforum for people to discuss their beliefs. It's not a division. The only reason people would 'stir up trouble' would be misunderstandings and lack of sense.
If people don't want to go on the debate forum, they stay away from it. If people don't like the technology forum, they don't go on it. So if you don't like the idea of a theology subforum, then just don't go on it. It's quite simple.

I'm surprised this hasn't been brought up earlier, actually.

[Eltu]

I agree to 100%, Advent. Well said.

[Ashen Key]

Atheist, here - and anti-religion, not exactly spiritual at all (although that may change, for a certain definition of 'spiritual') - and I don't see a problem with the subforum at all. It would be a place for those like-minded to discuss things in an area dedicated to it, which also means it's easily avoidable for those of us who don't care for it.

I fail to see why there is the need for drama. I get that we atheists can be quick to lash out and mock and tear down, it's a natural by-product of being a minority, particularly one that has been, and in certain areas, continues to be, persecuted/discriminated. But this a SUB-FORUM that everyone is talking about, not a forum-wide implementation of a policy to be pro-theist.

I really, really am at a loss as to why there is so much drama attached to this idea.

[Pa'li Makto]

TRUE!! I still don't get why there is an issue here with creating a subforum.

[Eltu]

Again, as with Pa'li makto, I fully agree. This whole thing is blown way out of proportion of you ask me.

[Fkeu'itan]

Honestly, I don't understand what HNM is trying to argue here, with the greatest of respect.

Surely, if subforums create tension and division, then why not have just one big forum titled 'Stuff' that everything would fall into, that way... If someone brought up a book that was also a movie for example, then both coud be discussed with no problems. Well, when it comes down to it, subforums only dictate the context and content of discussion, that way... When someone comes into the book forum to talk about a LoTR book, for example, they know that the topic will be the *book* version, and not the *film* version. To run with the analogy, some people might not like the books, they might find them boring... Which is why they then go to post about the same subject in the film section.

I see it as exactly the same with this Spirituality subforum.

Another thing I don't understand is the idea of 'endorsement'... I mean, if we supposedly don't want to be associated with something, that's not really going to happen. This is an Avatar forum... That right away associated us with a film that has strong spiritualist content and a heavy-handed pro-environmentalist message. (If not to you personally, then to the general public as a whole.) And that really defeats the point. Don't forget (as previously mentioned) we also have environmentalist and science and technology subforums... Surely these two things also represent an opinion, even if that opinion does seem one-sided from an outside point of view.

Right now, I feel what we're communicating is that "we are a solely scientific and pro-environmentalist fan forum" whereas if we introduced something like Spirituality, we would only show our broadness and diversity as a fanbase.

Naturally, this forum would be a tempting prospect for any spiritualist - myself included - but why shouldn't it be? In recent times, we've felt pushed out and unwanted by our own forum members, let alone our 'family', so of course we're fighting for our right (to party lol) to a place we can all discuss again, like we used to be able to.

[Clarke]

Originally Posted by Fkeu'itan

Surely, if subforums create tension and division, then why not have just one big forum titled 'Stuff' that everything would fall into, that way... .

Because the existing subforums aren't divided by opinion. They are divided by subject.

Also, I see HNM's point. If you do create a spirituality subforum, and exclude discussions of spirituality from a logical/other perspective, then you are creating a division in the userbase. You are excluding those people who disagree with the premise the subforum is founded on, and I am fairly sure that the validity of that premise is entirely opinion. Excluding people based on their/your opinion, rather than evidence or objectively-followable reasoning, is almost the definition of totalitarianism.

As I saw comparisons with the science forum earlier, I object: the science subforum is not about philosophy. It is about news of scientific developments. I'm not sure whether the admins would let us use it to discuss philosophy, but "What does development X mean socially/ethically/spiritually?" is certainly a valid question that could be discussed somewhere, if not in the science forum.

Also, Mika, please try to avoid appealing to emotions.