Tar Sands coming to Utah

[iron_jones]

Originally Posted by auroraglacialis

I never said, that I'm not an addict myself - so yes

I stopped reading there.
I have to ask, how do you expect anyone to take you seriously??

[Marvellous Chester]

Originally Posted by iron_jones

We need oil though.

No we don't, we need a change in the law that allows horses and wagons on the road. If people would bother to walk or cycle too, that'd fix obesity as well - damn I should be Prime Minister Humans have been getting about the planet for a long long time before we found oil, people just need to stop being lazy.

[Clarke]

Originally Posted by The Silver Stag

No we don't, we need a change in the law that allows horses and wagons on the road.

If you'll excuse the obscenity, horses are ****ty.

...Literally. The sheer quantity of horse droppings in the major cities of 1900 was a huge environmental problem. They spread disease, were unhygenic, and hard to dispose of. (And, to top it off, stank.) Cars were essentially a major win in that regard.

[auroraglacialis]

Originally Posted by iron_jones

I stopped reading there.
I have to ask, how do you expect anyone to take you seriously??

This is the old hypocrisy debate again. I have tried to express the problem with that many times before here. To demand of someone to be "pure and without sin" before calling some behaviour sinful does not make sense. What does the personal behaviour of one person have an influence on the rightfulness or wrongfulness of an action?
Lets try this: Do you, IJ, like it that children are enslaved to make clothes or that people suffer of hunger in some countries or that people die in wars lead by your country? Do you accept it as inevitable or the way life is? Or do you think that maybe this is a bad idea and should stop? Are you then not allowed to voice that opinion simply because you do not wear local made, fair trade, organic clothing, send all the money you can spare to help fight hunger in Africa, eat vegan food only (and refrain from buying cut flowers) so that people in these countries can have more food - or simply because you as a citizen of your country are inevitably benefitting from the wars the country leads?
What I am saying is that yes, we are all part of the problem, but it makes no sense to demand becoming a purist before one can point to the problems that exist! We can try to do what we can and I honestly do. We have presently warm water once a week to conserve oil, my room has 13°C in winter to conserve oil, I have a big red switch in my room to turn off all electricity at night, we are installing a solar warm water heater, there is a water hose in the bathroom to use instead of toilet paper, meat is cooked maybe once a week, most of the veggies and meat is organic and we walk to the supermarket with a cart instead of a car. But yes - I still need to earn money by actually working and unless someone gives me a place big enough to follow SilverStags advice and get a horse, I need to get to work by other means. And yes we also still use oil for heating, though we are planning on installing a wood fired stove and solar water heater. To get off oil is - like getting off heroine - not something that is easy or fast. But at least I am trying and looking for ways out of it instead of saying "oh well, but I NEED oil, so I'll just say yes to all the crap that is done for it".

EDIT: Oh and two more things. One is a question: "What would you demand of me and my personal lifestyle in order to grant me the right to speak up against tar sands oil mining?" and the other is a comment: There is a movie called "No impact man". It is impressive how far he got in reducing impact, but even with all that money and effort he was able to put into this, he quickly realized that the best he can do is "no net impact" and that even that is almost impossible while remaining within society.

Originally Posted by The Silver Stag

No we don't, we need a change in the law that allows horses and wagons on the road.

Yay that - I'd take a horse even without wagon anytime - But as you say - the buerocracy and laws against that are immense - and I doubt if I increase my weirdness factor by that additional element, that I would be able to keep my job. If I tell people I do not have a cellphone, facebook account or wristwatch they already go - I do rarely dare tell them about our warm water policy or the optional alternative to toilet paper and dont want to think about the scene of a horse grazing on the soccer field near the institute during the day

Haha - or explain to my boss that surely I can be at the conference in Spain and give a talk, but that would mean that I have to leave in August to be there in September because the horse will carry me only 50 or 100 km a day or if I walk, it would be more like 20 km a day, so I'd need to start walking in June.

The problem is that we are chained, tied and embedded in a culture that is high on oil. It is basically inescapable except by the most daring or extreme measures - or by earning a lot of money to "buy oneself out". But in the end - I would not mind if there would be less and less oil because we dont touch the tar sands. So what - then at least alternative ways would become acceptable and available... and maybe one day I can live sustainably with, from and as part of a piece of land that would otherwise be destroyed by tar sands mining.

[Moco Loco]

I find horse laws kind of strange. If horses were allowed to use the roads (or the side of roads/ medians), I don't see how it would be a huge issue. Give it a diaper Besides, I doubt loads of people would run off and buy horses if this happened. Let them use the cycle lanes At least, in New Orleans, the laws for horses are really loose. People ride horses all around with no problem.

[auroraglacialis]

Haha - yeah and in the parts of the US where there are Amish people living, there seem to be relatively reasonable laws as well - Here you better do not dare this - this is Germany after all - we are a civilized country. Get a BMW made in Germany if you want to use the roads. You are not even allowed to use rollerskates on the walkways or cycle lanes. Well maybe if you attach a number plate to the horse and attach head- and taillights to it and spraypaint it with reflective colors, there could be an option - but only on a special horse lane that would have to be built alongside the roads of course. Ok, yes I am being sarcastic, but I think this is about the worst country to be in when it comes to creating alternative DIY solutions to the mainstream way of living...

[iron_jones]

Originally Posted by auroraglacialis

Lets try this: Do you, IJ, like it that children are enslaved to make clothes or that people suffer of hunger in some countries or that people die in wars lead by your country? Do you accept it as inevitable or the way life is? Or do you think that maybe this is a bad idea and should stop?

I do agree, it's wrong.

Are you then not allowed to voice that opinion simply because you do not wear local made, fair trade, organic clothing, send all the money you can spare to help fight hunger in Africa, eat vegan food only (and refrain from buying cut flowers) so that people in these countries can have more food - or simply because you as a citizen of your country are inevitably benefitting from the wars the country leads?

I don't really think anyone should feel obligated to send money to Africa.
But you're exactly right. If you wear clothing made in a sweat shop, who the hell are you to tell people to not buy clothing from walmart?
I prefer my clothing cheap. In fact, my Jeans I'm wearing right now were probably made in a sweat shop. Is it right? No.
But people need to stretch a dollar, and so by wearing these jeans I'm not going to tell people to buy locally made clothing.

We have presently warm water once a week to conserve oil, my room has 13°C in winter to conserve oil, I have a big red switch in my room to turn off all electricity at night, we are installing a solar warm water heater, there is a water hose in the bathroom to use instead of toilet paper, meat is cooked maybe once a week, most of the veggies and meat is organic and we walk to the supermarket with a cart instead of a car. But yes - I still need to earn money by actually working and unless someone gives me a place big enough to follow SilverStags advice and get a horse, I need to get to work by other means. And yes we also still use oil for heating, though we are planning on installing a wood fired stove and solar water heater. To get off oil is - like getting off heroine - not something that is easy or fast. But at least I am trying and looking for ways out of it instead of saying "oh well, but I NEED oil, so I'll just say yes to all the crap that is done for it".

I do admire what you do. It seems you're going out of your way to make your life very inconvinient, though.

All i'm saying is it's easy to say "Oh no, they're going to extract crude oil and ruin the habitat and climate of that area"
It's also easy to drive a car without thinking of where that gasoline comes from.

But I use gasoline and oil, so I don't think I have a right in any way to protest the extraction of crude oil.

EDIT: Oh and two more things. One is a question: "What would you demand of me and my personal lifestyle in order to grant me the right to speak up against tar sands oil mining?"

I demand nothing. I merely disagree.

And no, having horses and carridges is a terrible idea.
Lots of poop and I don't want to be on a horse when it's -45 degrees celcius.

[Isard]

Originally Posted by iron_jones

I stopped reading there.
I have to ask, how do you expect anyone to take you seriously??

Nobody does.

[Advent]

Originally Posted by Clarke

If you'll excuse the obscenity, horses are ****ty.

...Literally. The sheer quantity of horse droppings in the major cities of 1900 was a huge environmental problem. They spread disease, were unhygenic, and hard to dispose of. (And, to top it off, stank.) Cars were essentially a major win in that regard.

Well, cars cost a lot more then horses, are more likely to kill people, and (in my opinion) stink as much as a horse does.

[Clarke]

Originally Posted by Advent

Well, cars cost a lot more then horses, are more likely to kill people, and (in my opinion) stink as much as a horse does.

Are you sure cars cost a lot more, over the car's lifespan?

[Advent]

Originally Posted by Clarke

Are you sure cars cost a lot more, over the car's lifespan?

Well, I can imagine food for a horse, and any other basic utilities you need for them are going to cost less then constant fuel, cleaning, repairs, fines....

[Tsyal Makto]

HuffPo has been covering the fight against the XL Pipeline quite extensively. There's usually a highlighted article about it everyday.

Here's today's.

Groups Against Keystone XL Oil Pipeline Sue To Block Construction
Keystone Pipeline Critics Call The Project 'Crony Capitalism' And Urge Obama To Reject It

As for horses, I think the decision should be up to the traveling public. If someone wishes to use a horse as a form of transportation, they should be allowed to, as long as they follow laws. It wouldn't be that difficult to regulate horse use in a similar way to car use.

[Isard]

Originally Posted by Advent

Well, I can imagine food for a horse, and any other basic utilities you need for them are going to cost less then constant fuel, cleaning, repairs, fines....

Vet bills? I think they're going to come up about the same. Of course, somebody who takes good care of their horse/car will always pay less than the retard who just expects it to work for a decade...


Also, relevant.

[iron_jones]

You guys won't stop until we're back in the dark ages.

[Isard]

Originally Posted by iron_jones

You guys won't stop until we're back in the dark ages.

Come now! Surely we can revert to the stone age!