Nonviolent Protesting

[Aquaplant]

Originally Posted by Moco Loco

IMO it'll be a very long time until human workers are completely replaced. Though we may have advanced enough to actually reach this pretty soon, the world economy certainly wouldn't allow for it in the near future.

That's because the economy and automation are in a direct collision course with one another.

You need to pay people money to get things done, but you also need people to have money to buy those things, and if you don't have people earning money by doing things, then you can't be selling stuff because nobody can afford it.

The way our economy works is just plain fail.

[Human No More]

Keep the unrelated rants out of this thread or it will be considered as having run its course.

[Moco Loco]

I often wonder when technological advances of that type will start to happen or if they ever will.

[Aquaplant]

Technology will never go there in our society that works only when people work and consume all the time, because that's the only way to keep this ball rolling. The only other alternative is to find another ball, but that's not something I have any say in.

[apache_blanca]

Starting from the end:
I agree with Dognik about "if you want to change the world - start with yourself". Yes, sure - the world is not perfect. Are we?

I disagree about a human being being a mass animal (and nothing more). Animals are mostly (altho not always) ruled by instincts; human beings have the gift of the free choice. Every one chooses, & often one makes a choice even when one is not aware of it. And if there is an action - there is a reaction.

Back to the OP:
the protesters made their choice, the policeman made his choice, the chancellor made her choice, & the silent protesters made their choice. Now each one is dealing with the consequences of their actions. The story is all over the internet & the policeman could be cursing the moment he chose to use the excessive force & show "who the boss was" - or he may choose to blame the "punks & hippies" for the unwelcome (for him) attention to his face & name completely ignoring the fact that it was him who triggered the situation.

Personally, I choose to admire the silent protesters. The concentrated silence was So powerful. Yes, true, people achieved many things with violent, or aggressive, protests over centuries (thinking French Revolution for example, with their addiction to chop heads off) - but now times are different, & maybe the protesting methods need a revision: less violence, more consciousness. Or more conscience.

[Aquaplant]

Originally Posted by apache_blanca

I agree with Dognik about "if you want to change the world - start with yourself". Yes, sure - the world is not perfect. Are we?

It doesn't work like that, because the change has to be in a massive enough scale to matter, because single individuals doing few things here and there doesn't mean anything, because there will always be surplus willing to take their place in the system.

I disagree about a human being being a mass animal (and nothing more).

There's this thing called culture, I think you've heard of it? Granted I'm rather individualistic myself, but that has only caused problems for me in life. Society works on conformity, and the more you deviate from the norm, the less useful you are. I don't think anyone of us wants to feel useless, so we at least try to follow the masses, some more than others.

Personally, I choose to admire the silent protesters. The concentrated silence was So powerful. Yes, true, people achieved many things with violent, or aggressive, protests over centuries (thinking French Revolution for example, with their addiction to chop heads off) - but now times are different, & maybe the protesting methods need a revision: less violence, more consciousness. Or more conscience.

Dead protesters are also silent, and that's the way they will eventually end up if they choose the passive method. There will never be peace unless we learn not to oppress one another, and while many submit to such cruelty because they simply have no other choice, there will always be those who won't take it anymore.

As much as I hate brute force, partly because of the jealousy that I don't possess any, but mainly because no matter what you intend to achieve, you can usually get it done with violence, because when people cause you problems you can't solve, you simply remove the source of the problem.

[apache_blanca]

Originally Posted by Aquaplant

It doesn't work like that, because the change has to be in a massive enough scale to matter, because single individuals doing few things here and there doesn't mean anything, because there will always be surplus willing to take their place in the system.

right... What can you do to guarantee this massive change?

There's this thing called culture, I think you've heard of it? Granted I'm rather individualistic myself, but that has only caused problems for me in life. Society works on conformity, and the more you deviate from the norm, the less useful you are. I don't think anyone of us wants to feel useless, so we at least try to follow the masses, some more than others.

some more - some less... I agree about conformity though, but still - times change, so does culture, & sometimes it is necessary - or at least advisable - reconsider certain points of view.

Dead protesters are also silent, and that's the way they will eventually end up if they choose the passive method. There will never be peace unless we learn not to oppress one another, and while many submit to such cruelty because they simply have no other choice, there will always be those who won't take it anymore.

silent doesn't mean passive. That silence in the OP must have been pretty unnerving for the chancellor! Imagine yourself walking thru the corridor of silence? I wouldn't like to...

As much as I hate brute force, partly because of the jealousy that I don't possess any, but mainly because no matter what you intend to achieve, you can usually get it done with violence, because when people cause you problems you can't solve, you simply remove the source of the problem

usually - yes, but it doesnt have to be always. If we were always doing the same thing we would be still in the Middle Ages.

[Fkeu'itan]

Originally Posted by apache_blanca

right... What can you do to guarantee this massive change?

Indeed... If a hundred thousand people decide to stand up as 'an individual', that's when things get done.

silent doesn't mean passive. That silence in the OP must have been pretty unnerving for the chancellor! Imagine yourself walking thru the corridor of silence? I wouldn't like to...

Again, I agree. Sometimes, silence can shout louder than a wall of megaphones, bricks and broken glass ever could. You're also more likely to win people over to your side if you show those lacking in bravery within society that you are people who have standards and will show solidarity and strength even when you're under fire (metaphorically speaking, of course). If the less courageous want to demonstrate, but expect it to turn into a sh*tstorm of rioting, they're unlikely to go in the first place. Not to mention the middle classes, or those slightly higher than you respecting you that little bit more, because of the lack of mob mentality that they are also scared of, for various reasons.

[Moco Loco]

We're "mass animals" at the very least because we live in groups and work together to achieve almost everything we have.

[Fkeu'itan]

I think there might be a lack of communication here... Perhaps peope are confusing the 'modern' idea of "mass" and the 'old' idea of it.

Indeed, we are social creatures, we naturally form groups based on interests and ideals, goals and requirements and we will work together to achieve those. But there is a theory that states we can live in societies of no larger than 150 before we begin to see people not as people, but as numbers - facts and figures - then, we start to lose our human touch.

Society in terms millions, hundreds or tens of thousands, even as small as thousands or many hundreds is perhaps the failing element here, what we really need is to see society broken down into 150 or less people within 'units' as it were. I think maybe that's where people are getting confused when one says 'mass' and another interprets it as a few million and the original party intends it to mean a group around that key number.

[Aquaplant]

Originally Posted by apache_blanca

right... What can you do to guarantee this massive change?

I can't do anything, and that's my point. All my life I've tried to do something different what others are doing, but to no avail. You either work for the system, or you cry and work for the system, there is nothing else to be done.

some more - some less... I agree about conformity though, but still - times change, so does culture, & sometimes it is necessary - or at least advisable - reconsider certain points of view.

It's not about reconsidering points of view, because the fact is that we are all weak organic meatbags that can be silenced with so little effort, that it's not even funny. Bullets don't care about your ideology and whatnot, they are equally unpleasant to all form of life regardless of their political orientation.

silent doesn't mean passive. That silence in the OP must have been pretty unnerving for the chancellor! Imagine yourself walking thru the corridor of silence? I wouldn't like to...

I don't have any say in the physical world, so I just leave it for those who are at least somewhat competent in dealing with that sort of things. Just like I leave it mages to do all things magical, and do not attempt such feats myself.

The only thing I can handle is the intellectual world, but then again there's nothing intellectually to be done when someone shoves their fist to my face, sticks a knife to my stomach or shoots me with a gun. No matter what manner of intellectual arguments I choose to use, they can always be countered simply by causing unwanted damage to my person.

usually - yes, but it doesnt have to be always. If we were always doing the same thing we would be still in the Middle Ages.

If you ask me, we haven't really come that far from those times. If someone decides to remove you by force, and they have the means to do so, your opinion of it doesn't protect you worth a damn. Of course it's wrong and brutal, but it can still be done, and it will always be done.

[apache_blanca]

Originally Posted by Aquaplant

I can't do anything, and that's my point. All my life I've tried to do something different what others are doing, but to no avail. You either work for the system, or you cry and work for the system, there is nothing else to be done.



It's not about reconsidering points of view, because the fact is that we are all weak organic meatbags that can be silenced with so little effort, that it's not even funny. Bullets don't care about your ideology and whatnot, they are equally unpleasant to all form of life regardless of their political orientation.



I don't have any say in the physical world, so I just leave it for those who are at least somewhat competent in dealing with that sort of things. Just like I leave it mages to do all things magical, and do not attempt such feats myself.

The only thing I can handle is the intellectual world, but then again there's nothing intellectually to be done when someone shoves their fist to my face, sticks a knife to my stomach or shoots me with a gun. No matter what manner of intellectual arguments I choose to use, they can always be countered simply by causing unwanted damage to my person.



If you ask me, we haven't really come that far from those times. If someone decides to remove you by force, and they have the means to do so, your opinion of it doesn't protect you worth a damn. Of course it's wrong and brutal, but it can still be done, and it will always be done.

My reply won't be long cos it seems that we have already expressed our points of view & I don't want to repeat mine for the next twenty pages.

Thank you for your opinion Aquaplant. You choose to be weak. You have the right to. Free choice.

Me, I am a survivor - & I choose something else.

[Aquaplant]

Originally Posted by apache_blanca

Thank you for your opinion Aquaplant. You choose to be weak. You have the right to. Free choice.

So it's a choice now?

I suppose that's the same thing to tell all the feminists who complain about how women are being raped and abused. They choose to be weak so it's their fault right? I can't believe I would ever use such a comparison, but right now I'm sufficiently angry to lower my standards.

And all those people who get gunned down in the street for no reason, I guess they should have opted to be stronger than that? Like it's no big deal that the world is such a messed up place, you just need to be tougher to survive it, that's all.

Me, I am a survivor - & I choose something else.

When you find yourself staring at the wrong end of a gun, your possibility for choice has been forfeit.

[apache_blanca]

I guess we're talking different strength. You're talking muscles - I am talking attitude. I know personally a woman on a wheelchair, paraplegic like Jake, - she travels, goes water skiing, gives classes, has a job etc. Altho she could have given to a bottle or drugs. Is she weak because her body is not at 100% - or strong because of her will power? I can't call her weak. What does a physical strength have to do with the strength of the spirit - or a mental attitude if you prefer?

[Aquaplant]

I apologize for letting my anger get the better of me. I've been having some serious emotional stress lately, so I'm not exactly on my best side these days.

Let me clarify a bit what I'm talking about:
Attitude doesn't make one bulletproof, protect from rape and so on. The physical world is cruel, and those who master and command it, always have the final say, regardless of how you might think about all of it.

Originally Posted by apache_blanca

What does a physical strength have to do with the strength of the spirit - or a mental attitude if you prefer?

They are both necessary for a complete whole, but neither can make up for the lack of another no matter how strong one is mentally or physically. Personally I don't have either, even though I have at times tried to improve my resolve and attitude, but I find that my emotional scars run too deep for me to ever be free of them. I also know people who suffer the same kind of self-esteem issues and have spent their entire lives trying to make up for it with mechanical prowess or other means of accomplishments, but the sad truth is that damaged individuals will never truly heal.



To end with a fitting quote that describes both sides of our discussion:

"Beneath this mask there is more than flesh. Beneath this mask there is an idea, Mr. Creedy, and ideas are bulletproof."