The armed forces - Are they really "Thugs?"

[Theorist]

so, to bring this thread back, I got a question. I often hear complaints that soldiers "dehumanize" their enemies; doing things like wain fleet in avatar, yelling things like "Yeah baby! Get some!"

Now, if I saw a real soldier do something like that, I would be pretty disgusted. But, now that I think about it, I can understand why they do it. I think there are very very very very very very very very very few soldiers who enjoy killing. I think most soldiers are probably there to protect their country, and because the military is their career, it's what they do; it's what they know. So, if a soldier told me that they dehumanize their enemy, to suppress the feelings of killing someone, and all the horrors of war, I would believe that.

tl;dr: I'm asking if soldiers ever dehumanize their enemies so that they aren't as emotionally shocked by each kill they have to make, and by what is going on in war. Because that, I can understand.

[Human No More]

Well, apparently, only a percentage of people will actually shoot someone when the opportunity comes and it's not a life or death situation. However, militaries have been using all sorts of brainwashing techniques to raise that proportion even since WW2, so I would say dehumanisation is quite likely.

[Rainbowhawk1993]

Originally Posted by Human No More

Well, apparently, only a percentage of people will actually shoot someone when the opportunity comes and it's not a life or death situation. However, militaries have been using all shorts of brainwashing techniques to raise that proportion even since WW2, so I would say dehumanisation is quite likely.

But the question is how do you know that the military of a country is using those Brain washing tactics? (I'm not talking about the american, british, french or any armed forces in particular.) I do agree that alot of militaries use those brain washing techniques through out history (Unending geniside over religon during the dark ages, the Nazi hate toward Jews, the followers of Al quida and even the dehumanizing of the Japanesse in the pacific theater of WWII) But I don't disregaurd any solider immediately just because they are in the military.

I mean, why do the Na'vi fight? Why did Jake, Trudy and Norm fight? For honor, for family, for the people and for what's right. Is it possable soilders today can fight for those things too? When I watch films like Band of Brothers, Black Hawk Down and even Battle Los angeles, I see the values of a warrior like the Na'vi in them Fighting the for the man next to them. Those are the things that I support of the soldiers today.

[Clarke]

Originally Posted by Rainbowhawk1993

I mean, why do the Na'vi fight? Why did Jake, Trudy and Norm fight? For honor, for family, for the people and for what's right. Is it possable soilders today can fight for those things too? When I watch films like Band of Brothers, Black Hawk Down and even Battle Los angeles, I see the values of a warrior like the Na'vi in them Fighting the for the man next to them. Those are the things that I support of the soldiers today.

(Eliezer Yudkowsky wants a word with you.)

Also, I don't think it is. Killing someone you consider your equal is almost psychologically impossible, hence the "brainwashing" of various militarys to various degrees. (Interestingly, it appears in that very example: Jake is already a Marine, and the Na'vi obviously don't consider sky-people as anthropomorphic as we do them.)

[Human No More]

I consider there being a difference between defending your home and attacking someone else to further political interests. Even a pre-emptive attack in the face of imminent invasion (e.g. Normandy) still fits into the former, while most invasions do not.
A lot of 'war films' are actually intended to be VERY anti-war, it's just that there will always be a group of people who will enjoy it for the wrong reasons.

[Theorist]

As disturbing as it is, I don't blame soldiers for dehumanizing their enemy. They are probably fighting for a reason, but that doesn't make it easier to kill their enemies. So, I see how dehumanizing makes it possible to actually fight in a war without being destroyed by what one is doing.

[Fkeu'itan]

Yes, I understand that aspect too. Although, I think a lot of people are underestimating just how much there is still remaining in the psyche of a soldier. I watched a short documentary once, where a soldier claimed he could remember the face of every one of the enemies he shot, if he had a chance to see it. These people are indeed brainwashed into a position of killing 'without remorse', but that's not to say that a number of years after the event, they have forgotten it completely, nor have they no emotion attached to the event at all.

As for war in general, I agree with HNM here. Defence of one's people after you have watched them be mercilessly slain is natural, and I would argue is the only example of a 'just' war. However, war in our time is never that simple. It is never a case of simply toppling an evil dictator or removing an agressive regime, there are a myriad of political, east vs. west, social, economic etc. reasons behind the wars we fight.

The people in the army today claim to fight for the security of their country, but what are they *actually* fighting for? Their country's security, or their country's agenda?

[Theorist]

oh no, I don't mean to say they are completely emotionless. I'm sure the emotions are still very heavy burden. I'm just saying I don't blame soldiers for doing what they can to avoid having those emotions completely overwhelm them. Just to clarify.