Nonviolent Protesting

[Aquaplant]

Originally Posted by apache_blanca

I agree with Dognik about "if you want to change the world - start with yourself". Yes, sure - the world is not perfect. Are we?

It doesn't work like that, because the change has to be in a massive enough scale to matter, because single individuals doing few things here and there doesn't mean anything, because there will always be surplus willing to take their place in the system.

I disagree about a human being being a mass animal (and nothing more).

There's this thing called culture, I think you've heard of it? Granted I'm rather individualistic myself, but that has only caused problems for me in life. Society works on conformity, and the more you deviate from the norm, the less useful you are. I don't think anyone of us wants to feel useless, so we at least try to follow the masses, some more than others.

Personally, I choose to admire the silent protesters. The concentrated silence was So powerful. Yes, true, people achieved many things with violent, or aggressive, protests over centuries (thinking French Revolution for example, with their addiction to chop heads off) - but now times are different, & maybe the protesting methods need a revision: less violence, more consciousness. Or more conscience.

Dead protesters are also silent, and that's the way they will eventually end up if they choose the passive method. There will never be peace unless we learn not to oppress one another, and while many submit to such cruelty because they simply have no other choice, there will always be those who won't take it anymore.

As much as I hate brute force, partly because of the jealousy that I don't possess any, but mainly because no matter what you intend to achieve, you can usually get it done with violence, because when people cause you problems you can't solve, you simply remove the source of the problem.

[Moco Loco]

We're "mass animals" at the very least because we live in groups and work together to achieve almost everything we have.

[apache_blanca]

Originally Posted by Aquaplant

It doesn't work like that, because the change has to be in a massive enough scale to matter, because single individuals doing few things here and there doesn't mean anything, because there will always be surplus willing to take their place in the system.

right... What can you do to guarantee this massive change?

There's this thing called culture, I think you've heard of it? Granted I'm rather individualistic myself, but that has only caused problems for me in life. Society works on conformity, and the more you deviate from the norm, the less useful you are. I don't think anyone of us wants to feel useless, so we at least try to follow the masses, some more than others.

some more - some less... I agree about conformity though, but still - times change, so does culture, & sometimes it is necessary - or at least advisable - reconsider certain points of view.

Dead protesters are also silent, and that's the way they will eventually end up if they choose the passive method. There will never be peace unless we learn not to oppress one another, and while many submit to such cruelty because they simply have no other choice, there will always be those who won't take it anymore.

silent doesn't mean passive. That silence in the OP must have been pretty unnerving for the chancellor! Imagine yourself walking thru the corridor of silence? I wouldn't like to...

As much as I hate brute force, partly because of the jealousy that I don't possess any, but mainly because no matter what you intend to achieve, you can usually get it done with violence, because when people cause you problems you can't solve, you simply remove the source of the problem

usually - yes, but it doesnt have to be always. If we were always doing the same thing we would be still in the Middle Ages.

[Fkeu'itan]

I think there might be a lack of communication here... Perhaps peope are confusing the 'modern' idea of "mass" and the 'old' idea of it.

Indeed, we are social creatures, we naturally form groups based on interests and ideals, goals and requirements and we will work together to achieve those. But there is a theory that states we can live in societies of no larger than 150 before we begin to see people not as people, but as numbers - facts and figures - then, we start to lose our human touch.

Society in terms millions, hundreds or tens of thousands, even as small as thousands or many hundreds is perhaps the failing element here, what we really need is to see society broken down into 150 or less people within 'units' as it were. I think maybe that's where people are getting confused when one says 'mass' and another interprets it as a few million and the original party intends it to mean a group around that key number.

[Fkeu'itan]

Originally Posted by apache_blanca

right... What can you do to guarantee this massive change?

Indeed... If a hundred thousand people decide to stand up as 'an individual', that's when things get done.

silent doesn't mean passive. That silence in the OP must have been pretty unnerving for the chancellor! Imagine yourself walking thru the corridor of silence? I wouldn't like to...

Again, I agree. Sometimes, silence can shout louder than a wall of megaphones, bricks and broken glass ever could. You're also more likely to win people over to your side if you show those lacking in bravery within society that you are people who have standards and will show solidarity and strength even when you're under fire (metaphorically speaking, of course). If the less courageous want to demonstrate, but expect it to turn into a sh*tstorm of rioting, they're unlikely to go in the first place. Not to mention the middle classes, or those slightly higher than you respecting you that little bit more, because of the lack of mob mentality that they are also scared of, for various reasons.

[Aquaplant]

Originally Posted by apache_blanca

right... What can you do to guarantee this massive change?

I can't do anything, and that's my point. All my life I've tried to do something different what others are doing, but to no avail. You either work for the system, or you cry and work for the system, there is nothing else to be done.

some more - some less... I agree about conformity though, but still - times change, so does culture, & sometimes it is necessary - or at least advisable - reconsider certain points of view.

It's not about reconsidering points of view, because the fact is that we are all weak organic meatbags that can be silenced with so little effort, that it's not even funny. Bullets don't care about your ideology and whatnot, they are equally unpleasant to all form of life regardless of their political orientation.

silent doesn't mean passive. That silence in the OP must have been pretty unnerving for the chancellor! Imagine yourself walking thru the corridor of silence? I wouldn't like to...

I don't have any say in the physical world, so I just leave it for those who are at least somewhat competent in dealing with that sort of things. Just like I leave it mages to do all things magical, and do not attempt such feats myself.

The only thing I can handle is the intellectual world, but then again there's nothing intellectually to be done when someone shoves their fist to my face, sticks a knife to my stomach or shoots me with a gun. No matter what manner of intellectual arguments I choose to use, they can always be countered simply by causing unwanted damage to my person.

usually - yes, but it doesnt have to be always. If we were always doing the same thing we would be still in the Middle Ages.

If you ask me, we haven't really come that far from those times. If someone decides to remove you by force, and they have the means to do so, your opinion of it doesn't protect you worth a damn. Of course it's wrong and brutal, but it can still be done, and it will always be done.

[apache_blanca]

Originally Posted by Aquaplant

I can't do anything, and that's my point. All my life I've tried to do something different what others are doing, but to no avail. You either work for the system, or you cry and work for the system, there is nothing else to be done.



It's not about reconsidering points of view, because the fact is that we are all weak organic meatbags that can be silenced with so little effort, that it's not even funny. Bullets don't care about your ideology and whatnot, they are equally unpleasant to all form of life regardless of their political orientation.



I don't have any say in the physical world, so I just leave it for those who are at least somewhat competent in dealing with that sort of things. Just like I leave it mages to do all things magical, and do not attempt such feats myself.

The only thing I can handle is the intellectual world, but then again there's nothing intellectually to be done when someone shoves their fist to my face, sticks a knife to my stomach or shoots me with a gun. No matter what manner of intellectual arguments I choose to use, they can always be countered simply by causing unwanted damage to my person.



If you ask me, we haven't really come that far from those times. If someone decides to remove you by force, and they have the means to do so, your opinion of it doesn't protect you worth a damn. Of course it's wrong and brutal, but it can still be done, and it will always be done.

My reply won't be long cos it seems that we have already expressed our points of view & I don't want to repeat mine for the next twenty pages.

Thank you for your opinion Aquaplant. You choose to be weak. You have the right to. Free choice.

Me, I am a survivor - & I choose something else.

[Aquaplant]

Originally Posted by apache_blanca

Thank you for your opinion Aquaplant. You choose to be weak. You have the right to. Free choice.

So it's a choice now?

I suppose that's the same thing to tell all the feminists who complain about how women are being raped and abused. They choose to be weak so it's their fault right? I can't believe I would ever use such a comparison, but right now I'm sufficiently angry to lower my standards.

And all those people who get gunned down in the street for no reason, I guess they should have opted to be stronger than that? Like it's no big deal that the world is such a messed up place, you just need to be tougher to survive it, that's all.

Me, I am a survivor - & I choose something else.

When you find yourself staring at the wrong end of a gun, your possibility for choice has been forfeit.

[apache_blanca]

I guess we're talking different strength. You're talking muscles - I am talking attitude. I know personally a woman on a wheelchair, paraplegic like Jake, - she travels, goes water skiing, gives classes, has a job etc. Altho she could have given to a bottle or drugs. Is she weak because her body is not at 100% - or strong because of her will power? I can't call her weak. What does a physical strength have to do with the strength of the spirit - or a mental attitude if you prefer?

[Aquaplant]

I apologize for letting my anger get the better of me. I've been having some serious emotional stress lately, so I'm not exactly on my best side these days.

Let me clarify a bit what I'm talking about:
Attitude doesn't make one bulletproof, protect from rape and so on. The physical world is cruel, and those who master and command it, always have the final say, regardless of how you might think about all of it.

Originally Posted by apache_blanca

What does a physical strength have to do with the strength of the spirit - or a mental attitude if you prefer?

They are both necessary for a complete whole, but neither can make up for the lack of another no matter how strong one is mentally or physically. Personally I don't have either, even though I have at times tried to improve my resolve and attitude, but I find that my emotional scars run too deep for me to ever be free of them. I also know people who suffer the same kind of self-esteem issues and have spent their entire lives trying to make up for it with mechanical prowess or other means of accomplishments, but the sad truth is that damaged individuals will never truly heal.



To end with a fitting quote that describes both sides of our discussion:

"Beneath this mask there is more than flesh. Beneath this mask there is an idea, Mr. Creedy, and ideas are bulletproof."

[apache_blanca]

Originally Posted by Aquaplant

I apologize for letting my anger get the better of me. I've been having some serious emotional stress lately, so I'm not exactly on my best side these days.

Your apologies are accepted. Truth be told, I got pretty **** up about this latest "exchange" to call it politely but decided to let time run its course, & come back & look at the things impartially

Let me clarify a bit what I'm talking about:
Attitude doesn't make one bulletproof, protect from rape and so on. The physical world is cruel, and those who master and command it, always have the final say, regardless of how you might think about all of it.

This is true! If someone shoots you - you die! But, if you survive, attitude can help how to deal with the emotional scars later on. Like the woman on the wheelchair - she's been thru very dark depths of depressions, it's not fun to loose legs when one is 30, but then she said "Screw this" & tried to play the cards in her hand the best way she could. Altho she still has depressions sometimes (who could blame her?) but she already knows some "psychological survival methods". Sense of humour is paramount, for one.

As for those who master the world... I am thinking about The Wall of Berlin. It stood in its place for several decades, & one good day it went down (20 years ago actually). How did it happen? Who brought it down? I guess lots of people with individial changes of consciousness that, eventually, made up a massive change of consciousness. The historical moment had to be right for that: 5 years earlier they would have faced bullets & tanks. Changes like this happen - but the time must be right. Is ex-Eastern Germany (or any country of ex-Eastern block) a paradise now? Far from it! Is it better than it used to be? I am sure it is. But, still, imho, several generations have to pass before we can talk about really radical changes. I was born in the ex-USSR, & every time I go to see my family I think: "Surely things have changed by now & it's much better!" - but then I see that only things on the surface have changed, the mentality needs so much longer. But I have hope in the younger generations, who travel, chat on forums like ToS, & see inspiration in movies like Avatar: slowly but steadily the progress will be made. It takes time though.

They are both necessary for a complete whole, but neither can make up for the lack of another no matter how strong one is mentally or physically. Personally I don't have either, even though I have at times tried to improve my resolve and attitude,

Oh don't be so modest! you insist on this with such force that I find it hard to believe you

but I find that my emotional scars run too deep for me to ever be free of them. I also know people who suffer the same kind of self-esteem issues and have spent their entire lives trying to make up for it with mechanical prowess or other means of accomplishments, but the sad truth is that damaged individuals will never truly heal.

I am sorry to hear that. "Entire life..." how long is yours if you don't mind answering? Yes, scars run deep - but (only imho) I draw inspiration from books Viktor Frankl's "Man's Search For Meaning (A Psychologer in a Nazi Camp)" & I know from my own experience that some traumas - at least some - can be healed. Then one can even help the others to heal their scars.

To end with a fitting quote that describes both sides of our discussion:

"Beneath this mask there is more than flesh. Beneath this mask there is an idea, Mr. Creedy, and ideas are bulletproof."

*applause*

[Aquaplant]

Originally Posted by apache_blanca

Your apologies are accepted. Truth be told, I got pretty **** up about this latest "exchange" to call it politely but decided to let time run its course, & come back & look at the things impartially

I despise conflict, but my stubbornness and somewhat quick to anger nature often leads me into them, but as my self-esteem always haunts me for whatever I choose to do, so that disadvantage often drives me to set things right, because otherwise I feel really bad about it. I guess this is just one of the reasons why I try to stay emotionally mute, so I would not needlessly hurt others due to my short temper.

This is true! If someone shoots you - you die! But, if you survive, attitude can help how to deal with the emotional scars later on. Like the woman on the wheelchair - she's been thru very dark depths of depressions, it's not fun to loose legs when one is 30, but then she said "Screw this" & tried to play the cards in her hand the best way she could. Altho she still has depressions sometimes (who could blame her?) but she already knows some "psychological survival methods". Sense of humour is paramount, for one.

I have great respect for strong willed people, mainly because that is an attribute I hold in great value and something I've always aspired towards, but so far I haven't gotten any closer to that goal. Though I guess we are all different, and for some it's possible to find such strength, but I've come to accept the fact that we can't all be strong, and I'm under no illusion of the contrary. I know I'm weak, but maybe that's a fail safe part of my nature, because this way I'm less likely to do something stupid.

As for those who master the world... I am thinking about The Wall of Berlin. It stood in its place for several decades, & one good day it went down (20 years ago actually). How did it happen? Who brought it down? I guess lots of people with individial changes of consciousness that, eventually, made up a massive change of consciousness. The historical moment had to be right for that: 5 years earlier they would have faced bullets & tanks. Changes like this happen - but the time must be right. Is ex-Eastern Germany (or any country of ex-Eastern block) a paradise now? Far from it! Is it better than it used to be? I am sure it is. But, still, imho, several generations have to pass before we can talk about really radical changes. I was born in the ex-USSR, & every time I go to see my family I think: "Surely things have changed by now & it's much better!" - but then I see that only things on the surface have changed, the mentality needs so much longer. But I have hope in the younger generations, who travel, chat on forums like ToS, & see inspiration in movies like Avatar: slowly but steadily the progress will be made. It takes time though.

I hope to be able to at least help make the world a better place, but my role is more or less just a supporting one, because I'm sort of useless on my own, so it's hard for me to find my place in this world when all places must be filled with fully functional individuals.

Oh don't be so modest! you insist on this with such force that I find it hard to believe you

I'm a very stubborn person, but I don't know if that could be considered as a positive or negative, because it all depends of the things I choose to pursue. Lately I've done things I don't know if I should have, but once I allowed myself to have emotions again, I don't know what to think anymore. The confusion is sometimes too much that I just want to crawl into a tiny hole and stay hidden until it all goes away. Suffice to say the world is full of issues and obstacles that people are expected to handle, but my reaction to everything these days has been running away.

[apache_blanca]

it's becoming an interesting conversation... I am off to the mountains but I'll be back on Saturday, we can continue then.

Before I fly away on my ikran - the only advice I can give (if you want it): "listen to your heart & take your time - it's yours"; if you feel like crawling into a hole - that might be the best you can do if you can afford it (like, if you don't have anything urgent to do & can allow at least an hour or two to be with yourself). Last week I had a very bad backache, took a day off... and stayed in bed all day! Choosing to feel happy rather than guilty (that would be the usual) about it. I had my tongue in the cheek all day We are brainwashed since we are born about what we should be (think, do) - & it would be nice if somebody asked "what do you feel?" or "what do you want?". So, imho, we should ask ourselves. At least sometimes.
Linking out,

[Crickett]

Originally Posted by Aquaplant

I despise conflict, but my stubbornness and somewhat quick to anger nature often leads me into them, but as my self-esteem always haunts me for whatever I choose to do, so that disadvantage often drives me to set things right, because otherwise I feel really bad about it. I guess this is just one of the reasons why I try to stay emotionally mute, so I would not needlessly hurt others due to my short temper.

Maybe this is me being naive, (and certainly off topic), but I like to think we're all friends (in the sense of being friendly towards one another, not in terms of being close personal acquaintances) here.

[Sempu]

Originally Posted by Aquaplant

I'm a very stubborn person, but I don't know if that could be considered as a positive or negative, because it all depends of the things I choose to pursue.

Stubbornness is neither positive nor negative, it's what you do with it that counts. Someone can be stubborn in refusing to give up on a friend, or stubborn in refusing to accept help. And so on. Ultimately it is better to be stubborn than not, because at least that energy is available, whereas if the problem is apathy then the energy has to be found before it can be directed.

Where we direct our energy is a matter of habit, and habits can be changed; sometimes this is easy, often it is hard, but every habit (of the kind we're talking about, anyway; I'm excluding things like reflex actions and hereditary instincts) was acquired and can be reversed. I find that the main factor in how easy it is for people to change their habits is the conversation they have with themselves about how easy it will be. Good book: What to Say When You Talk to Yourself.