Will the Humans Return?

[Niri Te]

Clarke,
The ships travel at almost light speed, but the communications travels AT light speed, IT will beat the ships there.
The RDA CAN'T "soak up" the incoming signal like a sponge, ANYONE who has a device on the same frequency WILL be able to pick it up. There are some VERY smart techs on Pandora, and they can sent the signal in several different frequencies, the damning videos WILL get through. When I lived in Germany after I got out of the Army I worked as a tech at both Radio Free Europe, and Voice of America. We were punching signals into countries that had entire arms of the military that their SOLE job was to jam our signals and we got them through ANYWAY. TRUST ME, the signal GOT THROUGH.
What the population of Earth DID with that information is up for speculation, but those signals WERE received by people that WOULD desseminate them to the general public. It's LATE I'm going to BED
Niri Te

[Clarke]

Originally Posted by Niri Te

Clarke,
The ships travel at almost light speed, but the communications travels AT light speed, IT will beat the ships there.
The RDA CAN'T "soak up" the incoming signal like a sponge, ANYONE who has a device on the same frequency WILL be able to pick it up. There are some VERY smart techs on Pandora, and they can sent the signal in several different frequencies, the damning videos WILL get through. When I lived in Germany after I got out of the Army I worked as a tech at both Radio Free Europe, and Voice of America. We were punching signals into countries that had entire arms of the military that their SOLE job was to jam our signals and we got them through ANYWAY. TRUST ME, the signal GOT THROUGH.
What the population of Earth DID with that information is up for speculation, but those signals WERE received by people that WOULD desseminate them to the general public. It's LATE I'm going to BED
Niri Te

Sending a signal across 42 trillion kilometres (26 trillion miles) is an entirely different task than playing radio tag with (manual?) jammer stations. There's also the fact that the infrastructure on both the transmitting and receiving ends of the setup are still under RDA control, since HG most likely does not have the resources for space-walks. (Unless you want to be completely bonkers, and transmit from within an atmosphere. That'll lose you several factors on your SNR.) It's also entirely possible for said infrastructure to encrypt the signal, since they wouldn't want their competitors reading it. That encryption would mean that there's no hope for anyone except the RDA decoding the message, and it may not be possible to turn it off, without space-walking equipment.

[Moco Loco]

Originally Posted by jujubees

Keep in mind that the mindset of the populace will be very different.

There's no way to really know that, so my statement was based on the way I think people would react now (given the context of the future, of course).

[Human No More]

Originally Posted by jujubees

Car engines burn air, the fuel is only to make the air more volitile. If you install a supercharger or a turbocharger, which will pump more air into the engine, it can go twice as fast- maybe three times as fast.
I get that there may be some work to do to make this happen...but given that human science has a pretty good handle on Pandoran biology (enough to clone a Na'vi), I think it's a possibility.

Yep, and CO2 is not the only factor in photosynthetic rate. Thanks for exending my analogy against your own point (and, no, speed tends to be limited by mechanical/aerodynamic constraints and diminishing resturns, there is no such system designed that would double speed, or even power). In any case, as it stands, a plant is 'good at absorbing carbon' if it could survive in a low-CO2 environment, as it is making more efficient use of resources, while absorbing more in quanitiy is just rapid growth (the point of the value of rainforest), while Earth's problems seem to be pollution and overpopulation rather than atmospheric gas balance.

Keep in mind that the mindset of the populace will be very different. Most of the Earth will be quite upset at the RDA's attacks, and if they're not, they don't deserve to be saved.
It could be possible for a non-RDA group to send an expidition to Pandora if a handful of idealistic, mega-rich donors stepped forward to fund it.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by Clarke

I don't think that's a safe assumption to make, either for ideological or technical reasons. For one thing, there's no guarantee its easy for Hell's Gate to get a message back to Earth in such a way that the RDA can't intercept and read it beforehand. If it's not possible, the game's a bogey before it's even started. Another thing is that, as far as I know, we're shown that the majority of Earth doesn't care that strongly about the state of the ecology. Even if they did (which, as mentioned, is not a small if) then they may not be in a position that they can protest. Cameron is very much going for a grimdark-megacapatalist-impoverished future, and so it's very unlikely that corporations like the RDA don't have significant hold on the people, and they could use that to stop any protests. (Look at OWS for an example of how it doesn't always work.)

Normal broadcast. Absolutely anyone can pick it up, and it travels at c. Of course, it doesn't mean every random on Earth could, but it's still accessible enough, and will get disseminated quickly enough to do the rest, especially when media pick it up.

Originally Posted by Clarke

Sending a signal across 42 trillion kilometres (26 trillion miles) is an entirely different task than playing radio tag with (manual?) jammer stations. There's also the fact that the infrastructure on both the transmitting and receiving ends of the setup are still under RDA control, since HG most likely does not have the resources for space-walks. (Unless you want to be completely bonkers, and transmit from within an atmosphere. That'll lose you several factors on your SNR.) It's also entirely possible for said infrastructure to encrypt the signal, since they wouldn't want their competitors reading it. That encryption would mean that there's no hope for anyone except the RDA decoding the message, and it may not be possible to turn it off, without space-walking equipment.

The ability is there now for much more distant (and therefore weaker) signals - they just haven't got any data yet. I thought you of all people would know that . It's even easier when a system is KNOWN to be inhabited, since they'll expect it.

Who is HG?
Infrastructure - Pandora: Nope. All the marines are gone, as you would know if you had ever watched the film. Earth: So there are no other dishes in the world? . As for encryption, a transmitter is a transmitter, encryption is implemented in layer 6 (OSI), a transmitter is not incapable of sending clear data even if it's set up that way in the presentation/network layers, even if those need to be reimplemented.

[Niri Te]

THANKS for the backup HNM, I was getting tired arguing with a rock.
Brie

[mikkowilson]

HG, Hell's Gate?

- Mikko

[Niri Te]

Originally Posted by mikkowilson

HG, Hell's Gate? Mikko

YEP, that's it.
Niri Te

[Clarke]

(And now the one-sided shouting match ensues...)

Originally Posted by Human No More

The ability is there now for much more distant (and therefore weaker) signals - they just haven't got any data yet. I thought you of all people would know that . It's even easier when a system is KNOWN to be inhabited, since they'll expect it.

As you point out, receiving the signal is a solved problem (assuming HG can pump enough power into it); that's not all you need to do to get a meaningful video out of said signal.

Who is HG?

Hell's Gate. (Irayo mikko)

Infrastructure - Pandora: Nope. All the marines are gone, as you would know if you had ever watched the film.

The marines are gone from Hell's Gate, yes. They can hang around in orbit pretty much as long as they like. Once they do leave, that doesn't mean that any satellites, etc, they've left behind aren't still under RDA control.

As for encryption, a transmitter is a transmitter, encryption is implemented in layer 6 (OSI), a transmitter is not incapable of sending clear data even if it's set up that way in the presentation/network layers, even if those need to be reimplemented.

Of course you can theoretically send cleartext data, since a transmitter is a transmitter. The problem is, the transmitter you really need is in orbit, and you can't get there because you don't have the skill, fuel, etc to run a shuttle and space-walk out of it. Therefore, you need to either use it as-is (which involves encryption if the RDA have any sense) or you need to transmit from the ground. I do not want to conceive of the infrastructure you would need to be able to do the latter with any chance of success. It'd be massively expensive, assuming you even had the skill and facilities at all. (There aren't any physicists on Pandora? Oh well.)

[Human No More]

Originally Posted by Clarke

The marines are gone from Hell's Gate, yes. They can hang around in orbit pretty much as long as they like. Once they do leave, that doesn't mean that any satellites, etc, they've left behind aren't still under RDA control.

Only if they don't want to return alive. The ISV has very limited life support and somewhat limited power, not enough to support everyone for extended time.

Of course you can theoretically send cleartext data, since a transmitter is a transmitter. The problem is, the transmitter you really need is in orbit, and you can't get there because you don't have the skill, fuel, etc to run a shuttle and space-walk out of it. Therefore, you need to either use it as-is (which involves encryption if the RDA have any sense) or you need to transmit from the ground. I do not want to conceive of the infrastructure you would need to be able to do the latter with any chance of success. It'd be massively expensive, assuming you even had the skill and facilities at all. (There aren't any physicists on Pandora? Oh well.)

...There are plenty on Pandora , and, no, an in-orbit rendezvous with a satellite every time you want to transmit is just stupid; of course it's going to be done from the ground. They have all the equipment right there.

[Clarke]

Originally Posted by Human No More

...There are plenty on Pandora , and, no, an in-orbit rendezvous with a satellite every time you want to transmit is just stupid; of course it's going to be done from the ground. They have all the equipment right there.

I'm sure Pandora's famously intense magnetic field isn't going to cause a problem at all.

They might have all the equipment available, but where are they going to get the multiple kilowatt power supply? The incredibly large (>100m across) transmitting antenna? The physics know-how to assemble all this in a way that has a chance of working? (I can't think of any immediate reason you'd have optic physicists on Pandora.) The split-second accuracy required to actually point a antenna based on a spinning moon at a moving Earth for long enough to transmit a message? (Hint: that last one can't be done without specialist computers, and there's no reason for any computer programmers to have deserted.)

[Human No More]

Any reason you'd need a >100m transmitter? (no). The Arecibo message was 1MW from 305m and good for 25,000ly, from within atmosphere

Also, I find your belief that There are going to have been no engineers on Pandora hilarious, almost as much as "what if it can only send encrypted?" (complete and utter failure to understand how communications work). Also, you jumped from surface-based to orbital then back to surface - yes, I did notice that

[auroraglacialis]

I think definitely that humans will be part of all the sequels. This is cinematographically important to keep people identifying with the movie. Humans want to see a movie that has humans in it. Good ones and bad ones ideally. So I think that some agency will be back in Alpha Centauri (maybe not at first on Pandora). Of course also, unobtainium is Earths perceived last hope to survive. So they will be back. But I think the resistance introduced by the "Survivors guide" will play a part, too. There are certainly people on Earth that dont care a lot about the plight of the NA'Vi (or accept it the same way that we accept the plight of the people in the Amazon - with a feeling of powerlessness) but there will be some that want to do more. So I can even imagine ships flying to Alpha Centauri with soldiers and engineers but also infiltrators doing sabotage.
I dont think any secret base or anything like that can remain on Pandora after the first movie, because I am pretty sure that a conscious living planet would notice such things

I like the idea and it is epic enough to fit to Camerons movies that at the end of the 3rd sequel there will be some shimmer of hope for Earth visible. Maybe a catastrophe first, but then hope - and then of course it would have come from Pandora. In the Survival guide there is already a lot mentioned about how Pandoran plants can help Earth and how they are already imported and escaped from labs.

Also Cameron did pull a lot of the mysticism of Earths ancient and indigenous cultures into Avatar. Also I think he did point to the fact that there are some things about indigenous cultures that is worth not only preserving but learning from. "The wealth of this world is not in the ground". The theme may well be that civilized society has to learn something from the indigenous peoples on this planet - who managed to live sustainably. There are things to be learned from them. (And no, it does not have to be that we are all going to live by hunting and gathering). Some indigenous and original cultures have practical knowledge of maintaining a sustainable, egalitarian and humane society. The theme that we in the "first world" have to learn from indigenous wisdom is quite widespread in the ecological movement. And I think it may well be, that Cameron will pick this up in the sequels and transport it into the SciFi realm. So it would then fit, that in the end, Earth and Humans will learn from the indigneous wisdom of Pandora and the NA'Vis.