Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

[sushil_yadav]

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Do you take drugs before posting?????

[iron_jones]

I'm not the one making outrageous claims.

[Moco Loco]

Ha, it's been quite a long time since this sort of exchange went on in a thread. Bravo, I was almost missing it.

[Niri Te]

He or she paints the entirety of the current human species, even those of us desperately trying to lower our personal footprint on this planet with such a broad brush that he or she bears the very same guilt as everyone else.

[Raptor]

sushil_yadav, can you please back up your statements with solid evidence!? Is that too much to ask for? Your posts are currently full of rhetoric.

[Ikranosphere]

People are not outraged ? Seriously ?! You need to make this clear. There are a lot of people investing in preventing, reducing, stopping those things you just listed and you should know it.

[allroock123]

I see a lot of people pointing the finger at politics and our consumerist lifestyle as well as the industral age , many also blame "science" and technoligy for all our woes, I would like to speak on a very deep core issue running under "all of this" that is also at the core of Avatar I have a lot of respect for "Avatars" deep example, and it has profound roots in our very deep core understaning of our true sense of place in our world (Or lack of it) and our connectiion to our inner accountability our subconscoius core self tied to our deep memorys and Dreams , from this springs our fundamental abbilty to see and feel our world and our connection to our core humanity this id waht drives us to deeply question how our actions effect others both personly and collectivly driving our deep core empathy for others and our natural world this is "The Bond" , as our people are stressed by large scale traumatic events like the school shooting of young children in connecticut our primal inner core self reacts with deep emotion (Just as it should) "But" if these events happen over and over a very sublime hard to see change happens and our primal self protection system labels profundly important core understanding the "source" of our problems and proceeds to "Cut the Bond" to one of the most profoundly important links to our universal core understanding, This is the damage our people do not see, But native peoples have a very high regard for the fundamantal part of there understanding and have spoken a very strong warning on what they see happeing that most of our people ar blind to see its like a cancer , it blinds our people of there deep core understanding that knows the truth and lets us "see" and "feel" our peoples collective core issues this lets our people "See" the roots of the issues and more importanly feel the accountably to "Act on what we see and feel" if one looks at the core roots of this song and ask why ? the songwriter wrote it, one can see the deep roots to our bond inside Denean - Eagle Fly ... But Don't Fly, Away - YouTube many would attribute this to the world view and spiritual understanding of native peoples , but new science is in the edge of finding out it may be a core universal part of all are people Gregg Branden speaks on this connection and I dont aggre on all he has to say he speaks on the mistakes of "science" Gregg Braden: Full conference / The Divine Matrix - YouTube

[Ikranosphere]

What ? We made it with our own hands. Science is actually a reflection of us as a species. Religion too, discoveries... and everything. We had to do something in order to keep ourselves sane and occupied. Industrialization and urbanization the same, their purpose is to keep ourselves organized, that's what animals and humans don't have in common. Reason. Even if there are moments when I think that fauna and flora own more reason than we do. Killing and eating as much as they need is one of the many reasons I think that.

Yesterday night I was watching a documentary on History Channel, on how we "made" it to what we are now. After Goodyear invented rubber, a material that makes the world go 'round literally, people in Africa (to be more exact, Congo) were tortured even killed in order to exploit the main ingredient of rubber. They were forced. If one said "no", he was beaten or had his family killed by soldiers of King Leopold II of Belgium, which treated Congo like his own private property. Even a late delivery of rubber prime matter was harsh punished, like children's hands chopped off, families starved etc. It's a result of industrial society forcing weak populations to surrender their territories and resource even their legacies. The atomic bomb represents the same thing, we learn to build and we learn to destroy, we learn to preserve nature and we learn to defy its rules, we learn to save and we learn to kill, we learn to consume and we learn to produce. What we do next ? Everything has a limit, even our evolution. At our very beginnings, almost 50.000 years ago, we ate and killed as much as it was needed, just like animals do, with a reason, but when population started to grow from 100.000k to 500.000k to 1.000.000k in 30 to 60 years, the "Grid" changed. The Ancient Civilizations were more connected to Earth and space than we are today, as a matter of fact we try to find out more about the outer space than about Earth where there are still a lot to discover. Here we still have a lot to learn, it isn't over yet. To get rid of the individualism thing, the selfishness that blinds billions it's a concept to control people, because when two interact and ask themselves questions of "why, when, how?" at the same time they answer to those questions. It's a concept to keep people occupied working, studying, no more family life, no more fun, no more absolutely nothing, it's the most safe and easy solution to manipulate. In our century industrial isn't the problem, but information. We know what we are supposed to know, nothing more, nothing less. People blocked inside their rooms playing online games and stuck in online socializing are easy to control.

You recall that event in Connecticut. It is terrible that isn't an isolated case. This happened, happens and will happen since weapons can be accessed by heartless, irrational sons of b**ches, psychopaths or old prisoners. How the f**k can you kill children ?! Authorities, what are authorities doing ? Their presence is only by collecting money from taxes, tickets, auctions or bla bla, that's what "authority" stands for ? Oh, God...

Feel ? Feel what ? I feel sick about this, because I won't accept work and technology to occupy my real life, simple but significant things to a species that was created from love, devotion, reason, discovery and imagination. I won't accept anyone to control me, my wife, my children or my parents or other people I know.

[sushil_yadav]

..
Five Elephants were run over by a train in the state of Orissa in India yesterday.

One of them was a female in advanced stage of pregnancy whose foetus came out as the train hit the mother.

The world will celebrate one more New Year's Eve today......After torturing, slaughtering and decimating millions of species this world will celebrate yet another New Year today.
.
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After destroying planet Earth.....After destroying most of the biodiversity and ecosystems, Industrial Society should be in Mourning but it wants to Celebrate instead.

It wants to Celebrate Diwali, Christmas, New Year and Hundreds of other Festivals.

If Industrial Society had any shame there would have been no Celebrations in the past , no celebrations for the next thousands of years.....only Mourning.

Industrial Society has decimated millions of Animal Species, destroyed Forests, poisoned Rivers, Oceans, Soil and Sky with Billions of Tonnes of Solid, Liquid and Gaseous Industrial Waste.

Industrial Society is a curse on this planet.

Celebrate!!!....Celebrate!!!....Celebrate!!!

Celebrate Diwali, Christmas, New Year and Hundreds of other Festivals!!!!.....Go Shopping.....Spend Money.....Buy Gifts....Buy thousands of consumer goods and services.....Promote and Accelerate Industrial Activity which will kill even more Biodiversity and Ecosystems.

And then wait for next year to celebrate the death of nature once more.
.
.

Industrial Society is a curse on this planet.

This planet can only sustain "Food Searching" or "Food Producing" Societies.....It cannot sustain an Industrial Society.

This planet can only sustain Hunter_Gatherer Society or Agrarian Society.....It cannot sustain an Industrial Society....It cannot sustain an Urban Society that produces thousands of consumer goods and services instead of food.
.
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More than 99.9% destruction of this planet has already happened.....Only the end of humans is yet to happen.

Most of the Biodiversity and Ecosystems have already been destroyed.

Species are not lost when they become extinct....Species are lost when they get decimated....Species were lost when their populations dropped from billions and millions before industrialization to thousands and hundreds after industrialization.

There are(were) millions of species in this world....Most of them have already been decimated because Industrial Activity has destroyed most of the forests....Millions of Plant and Animal species have been decimated by Mining Industry, Logging Industry, Construction Industry, Manufacturing Industry, Energy Generation Industry, Oil Drilling, Oil Refining, Transportation Industry, Millions of kilometers of Rail and Road Networks, Ports and Airports..

If we calculate the decline in populations of millions of species after industrialization the combined loss will come to more than 99.9%.

Rivers, Lakes, Oceans, Atmosphere and Land have been polluted, poisoned and killed by trillions of tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical Waste, Gaseous waste, eWaste and Nuclear Waste.....The entire planet has become a Toxic Dump.....All Solid, Liquid and Gaseous Industrial Waste that has been produced by Industrial Society in 250 years after Industrial Revolution has accumulated on earth....It has not gone out of earth.

Oceans have turned acidic and warmer and there are oxygen deprived dead zones in the oceans....Fish in the oceans have been decimated by Industrial Fishing.

Billions of acres of fertile soil that was the source of food to millions of species has been killed by Cement, Concrete and Asphalt.


A society that has destroyed all the natural resources of the planet will also destroy itself.

After destroying biodiversity and ecosystems which sustained human life for millions of years man will not exist...It is only a matter of a few years now.
..

[Raptor]

How about you suggest some reasonable steps that our society should take instead of posting a bunch of rhetoric? Better yet, can you give context and statistics instead of anecdotes?

[Tsawke`Iheyu]

99,9% ? This percentage totaled Earth. You made a calculus or you're just trying to catch attention with things people already know ?

[iron_jones]

Originally Posted by sushil_yadav

..
Five Elephants were run over by a train in the state of Orissa in India yesterday.

One of them was a female in advanced stage of pregnancy whose foetus came out as the train hit the mother.

The world will celebrate one more New Year's Eve today......After torturing, slaughtering and decimating millions of species this world will celebrate yet another New Year today.
.
.

After destroying planet Earth.....After destroying most of the biodiversity and ecosystems, Industrial Society should be in Mourning but it wants to Celebrate instead.

It wants to Celebrate Diwali, Christmas, New Year and Hundreds of other Festivals.

If Industrial Society had any shame there would have been no Celebrations in the past , no celebrations for the next thousands of years.....only Mourning.

Industrial Society has decimated millions of Animal Species, destroyed Forests, poisoned Rivers, Oceans, Soil and Sky with Billions of Tonnes of Solid, Liquid and Gaseous Industrial Waste.

Industrial Society is a curse on this planet.

Celebrate!!!....Celebrate!!!....Celebrate!!!

Celebrate Diwali, Christmas, New Year and Hundreds of other Festivals!!!!.....Go Shopping.....Spend Money.....Buy Gifts....Buy thousands of consumer goods and services.....Promote and Accelerate Industrial Activity which will kill even more Biodiversity and Ecosystems.

And then wait for next year to celebrate the death of nature once more.
.
.

Industrial Society is a curse on this planet.

This planet can only sustain "Food Searching" or "Food Producing" Societies.....It cannot sustain an Industrial Society.

This planet can only sustain Hunter_Gatherer Society or Agrarian Society.....It cannot sustain an Industrial Society....It cannot sustain an Urban Society that produces thousands of consumer goods and services instead of food.
.
.

More than 99.9% destruction of this planet has already happened.....Only the end of humans is yet to happen.

Most of the Biodiversity and Ecosystems have already been destroyed.

Species are not lost when they become extinct....Species are lost when they get decimated....Species were lost when their populations dropped from billions and millions before industrialization to thousands and hundreds after industrialization.

There are(were) millions of species in this world....Most of them have already been decimated because Industrial Activity has destroyed most of the forests....Millions of Plant and Animal species have been decimated by Mining Industry, Logging Industry, Construction Industry, Manufacturing Industry, Energy Generation Industry, Oil Drilling, Oil Refining, Transportation Industry, Millions of kilometers of Rail and Road Networks, Ports and Airports..

If we calculate the decline in populations of millions of species after industrialization the combined loss will come to more than 99.9%.

Rivers, Lakes, Oceans, Atmosphere and Land have been polluted, poisoned and killed by trillions of tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical Waste, Gaseous waste, eWaste and Nuclear Waste.....The entire planet has become a Toxic Dump.....All Solid, Liquid and Gaseous Industrial Waste that has been produced by Industrial Society in 250 years after Industrial Revolution has accumulated on earth....It has not gone out of earth.

Oceans have turned acidic and warmer and there are oxygen deprived dead zones in the oceans....Fish in the oceans have been decimated by Industrial Fishing.

Billions of acres of fertile soil that was the source of food to millions of species has been killed by Cement, Concrete and Asphalt.


A society that has destroyed all the natural resources of the planet will also destroy itself.

After destroying biodiversity and ecosystems which sustained human life for millions of years man will not exist...It is only a matter of a few years now.
..

And you helped. ****-head.

[auroraglacialis]

sushil_yadav, it would be helpful, if you adressed the people responding to your posts and not just do a monologue, as much truth as there is in that, it reads at times more like a rant than a debate. Maybe think about making this a two-way communication, would you?

I agree with much that you are saying but also there are some things that I see different. One is the claim that humans are for some reason inherently destructive if not occupied by a lot of daily work for food:

Originally Posted by sushil_yadav

Here is the answer - Billions of people who are not producing food in Industrial Society have to be kept engaged in some work or activity....People would go crazy without work....Therefore unnecessary, meaningless, futile and destructive jobs and professions are created by Industrial Society to keep the Urban Population occupied.

In hunter-gatherer societies, people actually spent something like 3 hours a day with getting food and then something like 2 hours more with making tools, clothes, shelter - overall they had less than 6 hours work a day, depending on region it may even have been less. Some of that work was "destructive" in that animals are killed or plants cut to make things - but they certainly were not really unneccesary because they contributed to the survival and existence of humans. But there was still the rest of the day and people had plenty of leisure time in pre-agrarian times. And they did NOT use that time to destroy the world with meaningless work. Actually that is a trait of agricultural and industrial civilization which is based on more forceful activity and growth. Agriculture itself is a disaster for nature - the soil being turned over every year, monocrops planted, trees cut down. It may well be that a society that is used to heavy labor as was common in agricultural societies cannot easily get rid of that "work ethic" anymore and people feel compelled to "do something" because doing nothing is considered to be lazy and bad - in that case, you are maybe right, but I refuse to accept that this is human nature - it is a result of a social development that has basically enslaved people living in industrialized societies. People in original societies had leasure time, they used it to make art, stories, to ponder spirituality and their connection with the world, they tried to understand the world, but it was not "work" they did. They did not "work" as artists or authors or priests or scientists but they just did these things in a way they thought right instead of a way that ensures them an income that allows them to survive because the survival was already covered by the time they did these things.

But one thing really puzzled me for decades now - why on Earth do people work more and more and as much as they do now at all if productivity of work has increased dramatically over the past 150 years? As you wrote, a single farmer can now do the work of 20, same is true for industrial workers being replaced by robots and machines. One answer was then that people do other jobs - marketing, advertisement, finance. But that is not really an answer because these are not things we needed 150 years ago. The weakest but still not really completely wrong response to that is capitalism. Capitalism means that production is maximized while the workers are kept at a steady income. Increases in efficiency of productivity of a worker does not go into increasing leisure time or wages but into growing the company and lining the pockets of the shareholders. I know that this analysis is old and that it has its flaws as can be seen by the attempts at socialism that still had workers doing a lot of hours (albeit often less than in capitalism), but its a start...

Originally Posted by Ikranosphere

It's not Industrialization the cause, but our beloved human race and its obsession with control. The bad part is that you can't turn a blind eye to the light once it has been blinded for centuries and it continues to be. The good part is that things could be done.

The "obsession with control" is what I would call civilization and industrialization is the endpoint of this. Humans by themselves are not so much obsessed with control - there are little tendencies for control in hunter gatherer societies or even in horticultural societies. Control comes with agriculture in the sense of totalitarian agriculture, the kind of farming that defines weeds vs crops, pests vs farm animals - in short that needs to deliberately eliminate plants and animals on a larger scale. Suddenly you are not fostering some plants and discourage others, but you start to kill in order to control what grows where and when... and then from that who has to do what work, who gets the surplus, who the weapons and who calls for a war - who gets the benefits of inventions and technologies and who gets the scraps. It is not "human nature" to be like this, it is a specific cultural expression that humans developed and that allowed those who follow it to grow in numbers large enough to now seemingly represent the human species just because there are so many...
...ctd

[auroraglacialis]

ctd...

Originally Posted by Ikranosphere

Once in a while humanity is meant to start over, and not just that we will live like hundred years ago but we will face the unexpected. ...
What do you say about the indigenous people in Amazon ..... They build houses from sticks, so what ? They don't pollute, they don't harm anyone, they don't want our resources to be like us because they don't need this and I can assure you, these indigenous people know more about you and me and us than we do so that's why they don't want to be exposed to a self-destruction.

Indeed - what is the problem with houses made of anything? If it keeps you warm and dry thats fine - that focus on what materials we build our structures and what kind of entertainment we consume is kind of stupid - Why would a house made of concrete be better than a house made of wood or clay? Except maybe if you expect a tornado, but then again people in cities build houses from glass and steel - thats not very stable either. And I have seen many concrete buildings rot away from various influences, so its not the building material that counts.

Industrial Society has also a rational thought : building vertically in order to preserve horizontal spaces. Just as trees.

That makes only sense under one circumstance - overpopulation. And not even then because inf act it is an illusion. Just because you stack peoples bedrooms on top of each other does not reduce the area of land they need. The space actually needed for living is very small compared to the space you need to grow food, gather resources and so on. It is called the ecological footprint and it does not reduce itself much when stacking homes on top of each other. Besides there is that innovation called suburbia which is the opposite - more land use per person and that land is not even used to grow food or trees...

Originally Posted by iron_jones

But the people in this thread are saying, because they don't like cars and electricity, that we all need to go back to the stone age. No one's stopping you.

This is not a matter of personal choice, as much as you would like it to be so. The fact that indigenous people are struggling to keep their land and culture is a indicator of this. If these people with all their tradition and history are struggling, what do you think someone coming from our society would be able to do in that respect? Of course someone is stopping me - the same someone who is taking it away from indigenous peoples. There are not really any places to just go and live simpler. Because the world is full of civilization, the land is enclosed and sold and the forests are either managed or protected, the oceans have 95% less fish than they used to, there are only remnants of salmon living in the rivers and there is pollution everywhere - where do you think someone should go who wants to live "like in the stone age"?

Originally Posted by Human No More

Exactly. It's not wrong, but what's wrong is wanting everyone to do the same. That's the direct equivalent of wanting everyone to live in a dense city area

No - that comparison is like saying that living rape free is not wrong, but you cannot expect everyone to stop raping others. The problem is that the lifestyle we now live in has a high impact. It requires the importation of resources, cheap labour (which can only be cheap because of bad working conditions) and energy. If you can live that lifestyle that you want from the stuff that is next to you - in your city or in your community or even in your state, then I am willing to reconsider, but as long as that lifestyle needs inputs from the outside and has to make sure to keep the stuff flowing, that is not "living and let live", it is forcing the effects of your lifestyle on others that want nothing to do with it. As our german minister of war - erm I mean defense said, "we are in Afghanistan to defend our access to resources and markets". This is because Germany has not even cose to the resources it uses to keep the lifestyle going. And if other countries are not willing to give it in exchange for something, we have to send tanks and troops to get it - or loose our lifestyles.

Everything is connected - you cannot have a wasteful lifestyle at the expense of others and then blame the others for letting themselves be exploited.

Originally Posted by allroock123

.....question how our actions effect others both personly and collectivly driving our deep core empathy for others and our natural world this is "The Bond" , as our people are stressed by large scale traumatic events like the school shooting of young children in connecticut our primal inner core self reacts with deep emotion (Just as it should) "But" if these events happen over and over a very sublime hard to see change happens and our primal self protection system labels profundly important core understanding the "source" of our problems and proceeds to "Cut the Bond" to one of the most profoundly important links to our universal core understanding, This is the damage our people do not see, But native peoples have a very high regard for the fundamantal part of there understanding and have spoken a very strong warning on what they see happeing that most of our people ar blind to see its like a cancer

This is good. Indeed people of this culture have lost the bonding to the world. We enclose ourselves in small boxes, do not know where the food and water comes from or what effect it has on others if we buy some thing, eat some thing, press a button. You may be interested in what Gabor Mate has to say about addiction and society. Part of it is that we as civilized people are deprived of that connection and we try to fill it with drugs or consumer items but it never can be filled, so we always need more and more. The only thing that can fill it is, and that sounds soooo cheezy now, "love, connection, relationship and compassion". Parents who love their children, a society that loves all its members, humans loving nonhumans. This is not replaceable by items and we all know that yet still many people are trying to, it seems.

[allroock123]

[QUOTE=Ikranosphere;177726]
You recall that event in Connecticut. It is terrible that isn't an isolated case. This happened, happens and will happen since weapons can be accessed by heartless, irrational sons of b**ches, psychopaths or old prisoners. How the f**k can you kill children ?! Authorities, what are authorities doing ? Their presence is only by collecting money from taxes, tickets, auctions or bla bla, that's what "authority" stands for ? Oh, God...

What people won't address is "Why" people commit heartless acts like this they wont dig down to the core human issues under this and ask Why do people commit heartless acts like this ? we are quick to blame gun control laws , the fact is most of those laws would have little effect on guns traded person to person outside the gun shop, , In looking at the school shooting in Connecticut it was known the young man that did this "Told one of his friends of his plans, The failure was that his friend did not sit down with him and address the true cost of his actions if he did, this is a real issue happening with people losing there heartfelt connection to there core humanity and accountability and we are far more effected by global stress and fear then one thinks,if one loses the bond to there spirit inside they lose there connection to there inner accountabilty to our people and themselves that combined with many young adults spending hours every afternoon playing online compettive first person shooting games in which ones skill in making headshots is a part of collective "team" pride and is these experences are often spoken on with group excitement every day,, this drives a deep De-Bonding or disconnection with the true reality of such actions, Killing is now "Fun" and this is often driven home in such games as the "only way to progress to the next level and resolve the problem at hand" this is very true in many movie plots today as well. But there are many filmmakers who are realising and reflecting on deep core issues behind this as well. one of the biggest problems effecting our people today reflects on some very deep core primal human behavyor rarely openly spoken on "Human Tribalism" this is behind almost all the conflits in our world today and is why "repeat our mistakes from our past " we fail to address the core human issues behind our actions, Its very important to Note "Native peoples have been there and done this before" But they have one connection "We do not" Avatar reflects on this quite deeply and I beleve its one of main reasons why the film has such impact on the Global audience , It refected back on our "own" hearfelt core understading gave it real value and let us see in part the reflection of our own actions in a profoundly powerful way this brought very strong feelings and emotions to the surface that where "held inside" in our people it also let many people "see and feel" the core issues for the first time that have been effecting our people for generations like a deep wound inside.