Damn those loggers

[Niri Te]

Originally Posted by Raiden

Do you want some help climbing out of that box?

It's really nice out here.

I have a NEWS FLASH for you DORK, I have been out of the box for a long LONG time.
You seem to have the VERY SAME Pollyanna attitude that the Pacific Islanders did, back when they would take all their household garbage, and throw it off a cliff, because the Ocean would "take it away". WELL GUESS WHAT, It DIDN'T.
If you make something, or build something, THERE WILL BE WASTE. That waste will either go into a landfill, or the air. or the groundwater. There is NO pollution free manufacturing process. If you believe that, than you belong with those pre 1960's Islanders. There won't be as MUCH, but it WILL be there, and it MUST be accounted for.

[Raiden]

Originally Posted by Niri Te

I have a NEWS FLASH for you DORK, I have been out of the box for a long LONG time.
You seem to have the VERY SAME Pollyanna attitude that the Pacific Islanders did, back when they would take all their household garbage, and throw it off a cliff, because the Ocean would "take it away". WELL GUESS WHAT, It DIDN'T.
If you make something, or build something, THERE WILL BE WASTE. That waste will either go into a landfill, or the air. or the groundwater. There is NO pollution free manufacturing process. If you believe that, than you belong with those pre 1960's Islanders. There won't be as MUCH, but it WILL be there, and it MUST be accounted for.

Lol.

You're too much fun.

I was being clever. I guess it went over your head.

You have not provided a solution. Of course there will be waste; that is a given. I think that if Homo sapiens feels like sticking around for any respectable length of time, we need to find a way to circumvent that, and either minimize the waste into something that won't become harmful, or just re-use it for something new.

It's called thinking outside the box.

Granted, this assumes that consumption is occurring at a sustainable rate, but one thing at a time, as people say.

Also, I don't know why you decided to tell me a story about this "Pollyanna" and Pacific islanders, but I don't litter.

[Niri Te]

Originally Posted by Raiden

Lol.

You're too much fun.

I was being clever. I guess it went over your head.

You have not provided a solution. Of course there will be waste; that is a given. I think that if Homo sapiens feels like sticking around for any respectable length of time, we need to find a way to circumvent that, and either minimize the waste into something that won't become harmful, or just re-use it for something new.

It's called thinking outside the box.

Granted, this assumes that consumption is occurring at a sustainable rate, but one thing at a time, as people say.

Also, I don't know why you decided to tell me a story about this "Pollyanna" and Pacific islanders, but I don't litter.

Now there you go saying things, or making insinuations about me that you really shouldn't, because you DON'T have a clue what you are talking about. I think that you know that I have an aerospace background, but that's it.
For someone stuck in in the box, as you like to say, there is a LOT of stuff that I had a lot to do with IN SPACE right now. I have personally been involved in several military launches, and have been involved in the design and construction of the hardware.
So TELL ME, how much stuff that YOU BUILT is in Space? I can't HEAR you.
Niri Tawa

[auroraglacialis]

Originally Posted by Raiden

Are they using the wood from the trees for construction?

I'm kind of surprised that a place with so few forests remaining (and a place that tries to promote a sustainable image) would still be cutting trees down.

I don't know if there are any alternatives, but it seems to me that there would have to be some kind of material that could be used instead of wood for building things.

And not stone, either. Something that could be manufactured.

Manufactured from what? All materials have to come from somewhere and as Niri Te said:

Originally Posted by Niri Te

THEN you have to deal with the air, landfill, and water pollution of the manufacturing process. There is no "free lunch" ...

This is thermodynamics - you always produce something that is less ordered and that is called waste. In Nature, other organisms usually pick up that waste and use it as raw material, in the end the sun drives all of the processes that do re-cycle materials and thus create more order from waste.

But back to Raidens post - Building and even heating with wood is called a sustainable alternative to concrete and oil, but of course it is only sustainable if consumption is reasonable. That is the restriction - either one uses nonrenewable resources which is not sustainable at all, or one uses renewable "resources" like trees and that can be sustainable if the use is in tune with the energy cycles of Earth, namely the energy that comes from the sun.
Germany has a lot of forest by the way, just most of it is managed woodland or tree farms and not old growth forest, so it is not really that Germany is cutting down the last remaining old growth forests for construction or anything, but rather what happens is that all the forest around is "young" forest with few trees older than maybe 100 or 150 years old, usually they cut them after 60-80 years or less.

Originally Posted by Niri Te

Now there you go saying things, or making insinuations about me that you really shouldn't, because you DON'T have a clue what you are talking about. ...
So TELL ME, how much stuff that YOU BUILT is in Space? I can't HEAR you.
Niri Tawa

Sigh - I can understand your frustration. I feel the same at times when I talk about ecosystems and energy. I worked a bit in that field, I published papers, did labwork, analyzed data, read books,... for many years now. Yet in the internet forums, I get the feeling that sometimes people who watched a feature on History channel think they are already experts and call me stupid because what I say does not fit into that picture. I figured, I will at least try not to be angry about this anymore, although it is immensely frustrating to have plenty of knowledge and analysis and experience in something and be treated like a school kid by people who certainly have less experience - Try not to get too angry

[Moco Loco]

If experience always equals knowledge, I am in for a sad life. Still, I like to think I can know about lots of things outside my field (stupid liberal arts).

[Raiden]

I don't think I'm an expert; I made a clever statement and Niri Te decided that it was an insult.

What I meant was that generating as much waste as we do isn't okay, and simply allowing it to continue because "we have no other option" isn't a solution.

I understand thermodynamics, and the concept of entropy.

Aurora, you're much farther ahead in school than I am, but that doesn't mean that I'm unaware of any of the factors that go into these things.

But, you answered my question about logging in Germany. Logging that way is better, obviously, but what I meant was somehow trying to copy nature, and thus keeping waste from our "activities" from interfering with the life cycles of other organisms.

If it ever happens, it won't happen soon, but thinking about how it might be possible is better than just throwing our hands up and "accepting" that we generate piles of waste.

[auroraglacialis]

I am sorry, I did not mean to target you with that statement, Raiden. It was more a general statement about the internet where people just do not really know what other people's experience or knowledge is and where it happens IMO quite often that someone overestimates his own knowledge on a topic when talking to others. So then it happens that I quote scientific papers to back up a statement in a discussion about a scientific topic and someone that tried to argue against me uses Wikipedia or something on the History channel which basically just makes me laugh.

There is that concept of "cradle to cradle" which tries to emulate nature in that all components used are degradable or 100% recyclable into the same parts again. Sadly it does not really work for all things. Basically this is what has to be done - do create only waste that someone else can use. Wooden buildings can turn to soil after abandonment - glass and concrete will last for hundreds of years until they at least become rubble. And other wastes - like plastics or radioactive wastes - last even longer and are harmful as long as they exist. Such waste has to be eliminated. And really it was only 150 years ago that these things came to be on a larger scale - before that almost all of the human wastes were food for something else. Throwing up hands certainly is the last thing that should be done - things have to change. Soon...