New manufacturing processes for alternative energy capture

[Niri Te]

We were not going to use the Hydrogen peroxide fueled engine as an aircraft motor, but rather as a motor for large trucks. There was no supplemental Hydrogen pumped into the engine, just what was carried to it in the peroxide.
The peroxide hits alternating nickel and silver screens, and they act as a catalyst, splitting off the extra oxygen. We used it because it was an easily portable fuel.
The engine is VERY efficient, the steam can be produced from ANY source. We had plans for it in fixed installations too.
The blimp was going to be STRICTLY Solar powered. Back then, it would have been MUCH heavier than it would be now, but I don't have the money to do it, and no one was interested then, they won't be interested now. Sooner or later, some rich bitch like Sir Bransen (I think that is "Mr Virgin Airlines name), will slap, what to him is Espresso money down, have it built, and go into the record books, obscene amounts of money thrown at a project have a a way of insuring the desired result, if you rule out Pilot error on the flight.

[Clarke]

That would of course make sense to use hydrogen peroxide, take the energy it gives off as it splits into water and oxygen gas and then use that pure oxygen gas to burn hydrogen gas with it.

I thought this was what Niri meant in the first place, so I ran the calculation earlier. It comes out to something like 8MJ/kg, IIRC, producing lots of water in the process. (Which I guess you could then throw out the back? Anyone want to try to calculate the thrust for that? )

I can imagine that this really gives off a lot of energy, but the storability and energy density of hydrogen peroxide and hydrogen gas is still not close to fossil fuels, hence I think it would be hard to fuel an airplane with it because of all the weight it would have to carry.

1kg of hydrogen weighs the same as 1kg of water, but to store those two in the same volume, the hydrogen has to be stored at 11,000 atmospheres. I can't really imagine how to store a substance at 11katm in such a way it'd be light enough for an aircraft.

A blimp might work as it does not have to actively use energy to float the heavy weight, but its payload would be small compared to the size - smaller than in fossil fuel driven blimps.

It being a blimp would mean a far greater air resistance, though, meaning it would consume more fuel moving. (It's top speed would also be very limited.) I think you run into lots of logistical problems if you try and use the blimp's ballast itself as fuel.

If it is refueled by solar energy in some way during flight, it basically is just a temporary storage and could be much smaller.

Solar panel input is proportional to the area you can devote to solar panelling, and even then, it is very limited compared to any sort of fuel. (e..g the absolute maximum power you can get is 1kW/m^2, and no real solar panel is anywhere near that. IIRC, modern ones are on the order of 300W/m^2 in perfect conditions.) I think you'd have to use it as a augmentation for a fuel source, not the vehicle's only source of power, at best.

And indeed - the addiction of the "civilized" part of the human species is due to these properties of fossil fuels.

As efficient and clean as using micro-nuclear reactors or nuclear batteries on board aircraft would be, I doubt it would catch on.

[auroraglacialis]

Originally Posted by Clarke

It being a blimp would mean a far greater air resistance, though, meaning it would consume more fuel moving. (It's top speed would also be very limited.) I think you run into lots of logistical problems if you try and use the blimp's ballast itself as fuel.

Well thats generally a problem of blimps that they are big.

Now here is an idea: Hydrogen is a gas that was used in old blimps for levitation and water as a ballast. Now one could imagine a blimp that uses hydrogen peroxide as a ballast and use it to create energy, using the oxygen to burn some of the hydrogen. I dont know what the ratio would be at the moment, but basically you would loose some levitation by burning hydrogen but also some ballast by burning the peroxide. The only slight problem might be that it was never really a good idea to use hydrogen in airships at all - and especially in a setup that creates oxygen gas

Solar panel input is proportional to the area you can devote to solar panelling, and even then, it is very limited compared to any sort of fuel. (e..g the absolute maximum power you can get is 1kW/m^2,

Well as you said, a blimp is big so there are plenty of m²s to cover. I can imagine this would work well if they are really lightweight. And of course there is the need for a backup. Just like in sailboats that use wind power but have a small motor with a bit of gasoline just in case...

May I point towards two (fictional) novels I read recently that feature such a solar powered blimp: "The Aviator" and "The long Earth".

Originally Posted by Niri Te

We were not going to use the Hydrogen peroxide fueled engine as an aircraft motor, but rather as a motor for large trucks.

Ah ok - I was somehow caught up in that blimp idea... For a truck, it makes more sense - even moreso for a ship, it would also be incredibly fitting for a submarine!

I still find it sad that the last efforts to build zeppelins in the past decade in the end failed. Cargolifter was the project. Now, sadly airships are only used for advertisement and military purposes, no beneficial civilian use - But I am sure that someone will build one. BTW in the novel I mentioned - "The Aviator" - exactly that happens. Some freaking rich guy builds himself a few of these solar/biofuel powered airships to bring him around the world in luxury and because it is great PR. And then the collapse of civilization comes and he is lost and the pilot basically uses the airship to go around the world.

[Moco Loco]

I just don't really understand why it's specifically a blimp if it's solar powered. There must be better solar powered designs for an aircraft than a blimp, seems like it would be more of a novelty than extremely useful.

[auroraglacialis]

One thing: Airships are cool

Also: They do not require much energy to stay up, just to move horizontally. Other aircraft need much more fuel because they essentially stay up only if they move - fast. You can compare this to wading across a river versus swimming. In the first case, you can with relatively little effort stay in one place, in the second case just to stay in place you have to really work out. And when fuel storage and fuel supply are an issue, regular aircraft are not optimal. They require these high energy dense fuels like kerosene. The few solar powered gliders are really odd looking because they need huge wingspans and have to be ultra light. An airship also has the advantage of a large surface area to cover in solar cells - an airplane has only the wings as a major surface area.

[Niri Te]

ALSO, not all airships. (I actually PREFER that term for the newer designs), look like the 1930's designs. The one that I recently designed, takes full advantage of the materials that not even on the horizon thirty years ago, when I started toying with the idea.
This particular airship has FAR less drag then the conventional design models, and uses laminar skin flow to it's advantage. It looks a LOT more like a Bullet than the old dirigibles. ALL the design work has been completed by me, and there will be ONE built, and THAT one is MINE. In order for me to be able to AFFORD it, the craft will be built totally by Ateyo and I, and hopefully will be finished and flown by me before I die, because if I die first, it will be COMPLETELY dismantled and destroyed.
Niri Tawa

[Human No More]

It's an interesting commonality in conspiracy 'theory' that supposedly omniscient entities with functionally unlimited resources are unable to harm one person, or even just buy them off, which I suspect would be the real course of action in such a situation, especially someone who claims a high media profile, even at only a single time in the past.

By all means, good luck with this airship design, but being melodramatic about conspiracies doesn't help credibility.

[Sight Unseen]

The hydrogen peroxide engine that Niri Te built, from what I can tell, is a type of Walter turbine. I've searched everywhere for info and the original German patent (which as far as I can tell was lost after WWII) and have returned with nothing. All I have found out for certain is that the design never (pardon the pun) took off as a method of propulsion because of the volatility and storage issues associated with HTP (for example, the "HMS Exploder" and U-1407). Most of the info drops off around 1950, and what info I can find is about engines that also require C-Stoff or medium-weight crude fractions such as kerosene or diesel.

It's pure speculation, but at the time the military may have had AIP systems (fuel that contains its own oxygen, how convenient...) or rocket engines (basically the same design without a turbine fitted with a de Laval nozzle) using the same tech that were classified, and through convergent evolution Niri Te's team unwittingly built classified technology.

[auroraglacialis]

I dont get what this has to do with conspiracy theories, HNM?

Anyways, in case someone is thinking this - that engine is nothing like a "free energy engine", it just uses a different fuel source, that of course also has to be produced by investing energy into it. Of course that energy could then be from renewable sources.

It is interesting how some of the technologies developed in the first half of the 20th century especially in Germany are having a revival nowadays. The reason IMO is that at that time, there was a need for the develeopment of renewable energy and highly efficient engines because oil and gasoline was still not as abundant as later on and especially Germany did not have much oil at all. That situation now repeats itself globally as oil prices explode, supplies are drying up and "unconventional oil" is not regarded very highly by most people, is expensive and goes against all desires to stop climate change. So technologies like letting cars run with extracts from wood (wood gasification or wood ethanol), Sterling engines and even airships are again on the table.

Niri Te - if you build your airship, take a trip to Europe for a visit, will you? I want to see that . I somehow want to build a model airship, but I have not the knowledge and capacities to build one that could actually carry a payload . The materials needed are prohibitively expensive. Lightweigt materials for a cabin and supporting structures (though that could be reduced if it really was a blimp and no zeppelin), gas tight stable lightweight weather- and tear-resistant foil and a filling of Helium... Helium is expensive and some of it is lost with time through tiny leaks and diffusion. Hydrogen is cheaper but the Hindenburg showed how that does not really work out so well (Our bathroom also still shows the signs of what happens if hydrogen from electrolysis burns with oxygen - remains of a teenage experiment of mine). But I really hope you will be able to build this, it would be awesome

[Niri Te]

Originally Posted by Sight Unseen

The hydrogen peroxide engine that Niri Te built, from what I can tell, is a type of Walter turbine. I've searched everywhere for info and the original German patent (which as far as I can tell was lost after WWII) and have returned with nothing. All I have found out for certain is that the design never (pardon the pun) took off as a method of propulsion because of the volatility and storage issues associated with HTP (for example, the "HMS Exploder" and U-1407). Most of the info drops off around 1950, and what info I can find is about engines that also require C-Stoff or medium-weight crude fractions such as kerosene or diesel.

It's pure speculation, but at the time the military may have had AIP systems (fuel that contains its own oxygen, how convenient...) or rocket engines (basically the same design without a turbine fitted with a de Laval nozzle) using the same tech that were classified, and through convergent evolution Niri Te's team unwittingly built classified technology.

What you say, would explain why the Federal Government acted the way that they did with us, once they found out about exactly how the engine did what it did, and SAW one in operation. All they would have had to DO is say "LISTEN GUYS, you people get the "Atta Boy" award, but what you guys just came up with, is VERY close to some highly classified hardware, you need to stop playing with it."
I and two other people on the team had extremely high Security Clearances, HELL the machine shop that the engine was built at did a lot of specialized machining for OAK RIDGE LABS, but just individual parts, NOT a complete system like I came up with, we built, and had RUNNING.

[Human No More]

Originally Posted by auroraglacialis

I dont get what this has to do with conspiracy theories, HNM?

Talking about "the federal government!" and people trying to kill her. If they actually did, they have the resources to do the job properly, or even just buy someone off. But conspiracy 'theories' are not based on logic but on wanting to have that feeling of knowing something 'special', I guess.

Anyways, in case someone is thinking this - that engine is nothing like a "free energy engine", it just uses a different fuel source, that of course also has to be produced by investing energy into it. Of course that energy could then be from renewable sources.

Exactly. Free energy isn't possible - free in prices yes if it becomes abundant enough or in an appropriately advanced (post-scarcity) society, but never free in entropy or energy.

Niri Te - if you build your airship, take a trip to Europe for a visit, will you? I want to see that . I somehow want to build a model airship, but I have not the knowledge and capacities to build one that could actually carry a payload . The materials needed are prohibitively expensive. Lightweigt materials for a cabin and supporting structures (though that could be reduced if it really was a blimp and no zeppelin), gas tight stable lightweight weather- and tear-resistant foil and a filling of Helium... Helium is expensive and some of it is lost with time through tiny leaks and diffusion. Hydrogen is cheaper but the Hindenburg showed how that does not really work out so well (Our bathroom also still shows the signs of what happens if hydrogen from electrolysis burns with oxygen - remains of a teenage experiment of mine). But I really hope you will be able to build this, it would be awesome

That's be interesting, a transatlantic trip. If so, I think Niri would suddenly be extremely rich if it's as cheap and efficient as claimed

It's possible, but the US military recently cancelled its airship program over lack of return for the time and money investment, but as said before, the interest again is an interesting point in the first place. I guess that's the right idea - take what works without tying yourself down to specific ideas for political reasons as is so often done.

[Niri Te]

HNM this is one time when you DON'T know what you are talking about. You don't set a sniper up on a rooftop to shoot someone, it HAS to look like a PLAUSIBLE accident, especially in the United States. And, BY THE way it was NOT the government.

[auroraglacialis]

Okee - I will not comment on the conspiracy / killing part in this case, this is something I cannot say much about except that I am generally doubtful about such things but I do not refuse the possibility altogether. In the CCC there are stories of several inconsistencies going around about the "accidental" or "suicidal" death of members who developed software or hardware that had large implications like a cheap and easy to use crypto-phone allowing to communicate without anyone being able to listen in - something that certainly no police or secret service would like to see on the market. And finding a victim of a so-declared self-burning in a extremely dry forest without burn marks on the ground really does pose some questions...

Re free energy - I think this is off-topic. I think Niri Te never claimed it to be that, I just mentioned it to clarify this because I felt that some people might think this concept plays a role here, discrediting the concept. This is as I understand it merely a very efficient motor using industrially created fuel that does not have to be produced with fossil energy.

Re airships - it is no question that they work, the question is if it is possible to make one that uses mostly solar energy and in case of Niri Te the question is if it is possible to build one large and stable enough to do such a flight within the financial bounds given. Theoretically, the investment in building and starting it would be the largest chunk, afterwards I can imagine that maintenance and energy demand is reasonable - I would however be worried about the cost of Helium which will always be lost in some way from a blimp. Another issue is of course that you need a hangar and you have to be good at navigation not to get into a storm - and you need several people to "ground" the thing. Still - thousands of steampunk geeks would call you a hero if you would build one, Niri Te

[Human No More]

Originally Posted by Niri Te

HNM this is one time when you DON'T know what you are talking about. You don't set a sniper up on a rooftop to shoot someone, it HAS to look like a PLAUSIBLE accident, especially in the United States. And, BY THE way it was NOT the government.

I think you don't know. Are you implying that if some giant conspiracy existed, it wouldn't be capable of setting up a car crash, overdose of medication, series of trumped up criminal charges, etc., or again, just buying them off.

Funny how people who believe in conspiracies are mysteriously ignored by said omnipotent,omniscient entities...

[auroraglacialis]

Well conspiracies DO exist and many have been exposed. Until they are exposed of course, they are just conspiracy theories and many of them probably are not true. If they turn out to be true, they are either called a "scandal" and someone has to resign (e.g. "Iran Contra", "Gladio - NATOs secret armies in Europe") or for some reason folders with evidence mysteriously disappear (as happened in the case of the involvement of the governmental agency in Germany that was involved in supporting neonazi groups). I am sure however that for every case that comes to light, there is at least another that remains secret for now. So I would not discredit the idea of actual conspiracies happening at all. Of course the more it takes to keep up that conspiracy, the less likely it becomes (e.g. that whole "free energy" thing). The interesting thing is that one of the main "weapons" of any conspiracy is that it is possible to make anyone who claims to know about it can be discredited as a stupid "conspiracy theorist" and not believed. Especially in the US, where there seems to be a whole culture about conspiracy theorism which basically ran out of control and nowadays even valid claims to a conspiracy are seen as dubious while other conspiracy ideas are given more credit than they deserve (the whole "climate change deniers" issue)