Life mating

[keyeung]

This is either the wrong place to post this, or it has been asked before or not, either way I don't seem able to find any specific references to this on the forum.

What happens if a Na'vi's mate leaves her or him or is lost.....

[X.,.Pandora.,.X]

o.o well I'll take a stab at it.
I don't believe it is in their culture to be able 'leave' their mate (maybe under extreme situations, maaaybe). Getting lost or being killed is a different matter however. I would guess they would be able to court again, but if they would want to would be the question. I think. I'm not entirely sure though I didn't write the script or come up with the ideas.

[Clarke]

Considering the ease and incredibly short time it took for Jake and Neytiri to get together, this seems relavent.

More seriously, Ney might be referring to the "ideal," in the same sense as the video talks about - our marriage vows are "until death do us part," and people still go through them even if both of them know that neither of them mean anything of the sort. Omatikaya mating might work the same way.

[keyeung]

So to be more specific, the couple had been together for many years, and one becomes lost, the ages would be around I would say 20 earth years or a little more, the mate had not been seen for some years, the clan member had traveled far in search for her, and was not able to find anything out.

[iron_jones]

Why would it be any different than humans?
Different people would react in different ways.

[Moco Loco]

What are you doing, writing a fic? That's some specific stuff.

[Raiden]

Joining neural tendrils is probably not just symbolic.

The brain of any organism with sophisticated neural structures is divided into sections that specialize in different functions. Humans have a cerebellum, right and left lobes, smaller sub-lobes, thalamus, hypothalamus, etc.

The neural tendrils of higher Pandoran organisms probably have their own structure that connects them to a special part of the brain that manages all the things that the neural structure can do (it would not just transition into the Na'vi version of one of the other lobes; that would not make much sense). There is also a concept in neurology called "neuroplasticity". This is the name for the ability of different parts of the brain to change shape on a micro/nanoscopic level in order to promote different things, such as remembering a code to a security device, multiplication tables, and anything else we need to know. The parts of the brain that do those things are "highly plastic"; that is, they can remember something until we don't need it anymore, and then the neurons change shape to remember something new. But other parts of the brain that are organized to do important, specific things are not very plastic, because they need to stay the same or the organism will die (cerebellum, hypothalamus, etc.).

If we apply this concept to the intense pair bonding undergone by adult Na'vi after courtship, it would not be difficult to argue that they have a part of their brain connected to the neural tendril that remains unused until they bond to a mate. This region is highly plastic only once, and it is altered in such a way that each member of the pair craves one another sexually and otherwise, which keeps them together.

If one member of the pair is lost or goes missing permanently/dies, I have no idea. Animals that pair bond intensely on Earth can select another mate after a time, but become visibly stressed by the loss of their initial counterpart. Perhaps there would be a threshold of "lack of neural contact" that would be somewhat like addiction withdrawal during which the converted region of the brain returns to its plastic "neutral" state, and a new mate may be sought out depending on the desires of the individual.

Avatar is (unfortunately, and in some ways fortunately) just fiction, but it's made out of mostly solid ideas based in real science. Those are some things I've thought out for how tsaheylu might work on a neurological level.

[Clarke]

Surely that'd be selected against? A species who can only produce one child per male at once would be out-competed by an identical species which allows for reproductive polygamy.

[Raiden]

Originally Posted by Clarke

Surely that'd be selected against? A species who can only produce one child per male at once would be out-competed by an identical species which allows for reproductive polygamy.

I never said that each pair would only make one child.

R-strategist organisms are organisms that have lots and lots of offspring and provide zero parental care, and K-strategists are organisms that have one or a few children and provide extensive care until adulthood or sub-adulthood.

Of course, this is a spectrum, and many organisms fall somewhere inbetween "absolute R" and "absolute K". Each side has a different evolutionary advantage; K's ensure that their offspring make it to adulthood (which will almost always have less predators than juveniles), while R's make it so that some offspring will almost surely make it to adulthood because of the sheer numbers of them.

There are some things about the whole "tsaheylu thing" that don't make perfect sense from an evolutionary perspective, but I think that is implied, being science fiction.

The other thing is that "Eywa" (which is really just a massive super-organism with intelligence and lots of organic servers and hard disks to store things in) may have been able to manipulate the evolution of the species to be a certain way.

[keyeung]

Raiden, I wold assume so, hence the question, for the purposes of this discussion assume the na'vi pair have been apart for what would be several years now, the reproductive act for the na'vi is very similar to any other mammalian species, and is not that uncommon outside the pair bonding and does not seem to interfere with the bonded pair.

What I am interested in is the act of joining Neural whips and the associated structural changes that would take place within what would be the Na'vi equivalent to the lymbic system and higher cortical associations. Would this be a parameter setting event, one that could only happen once.

would an attempt to make another bond many years later result in, discomfort, pain, death, or simply would it not work,

[Sarah Noel]

Here's the relevant excerpt from the Avatar Survival Guide published by Fox which is semi-canon:

"Navi Mating Practices

The Na'vi are monogamous creatures who mate for life. The mechanics of reproduction are similar to that of humans and other Terran mammals. But their unique physiology provides the Na'vi with a level of intimacy unknown to Earth. Cultural Anthropologists believe that when an appropriate mate has been selected (which can take many years)' the male and female Na'vi will connect queues to create an emotional bond that lasts a lifetime. The intertwining of queues is both highly erotic and profoundly spiritual, but does not in itself lead to reproduction."

I actually had a fanfiction dealing with the themes of monogomy & polyamory as it corresponded with na'vi vs. avatars vs. humans as a back-story back in 2010 when I was first developing my cosplay. I dropped the idea later on when I started losing interest.

[Clarke]

Originally Posted by Raiden

I never said that each pair would only make one child.
R-strategist organisms are organisms that have lots and lots of offspring and provide zero parental care, and K-strategists are organisms that have one or a few children and provide extensive care until adulthood or sub-adulthood.

Of course, this is a spectrum, and many organisms fall somewhere inbetween "absolute R" and "absolute K". Each side has a different evolutionary advantage; K's ensure that their offspring make it to adulthood (which will almost always have less predators than juveniles), while R's make it so that some offspring will almost surely make it to adulthood because of the sheer numbers of them.

Since humans (and presumably Na'vi) are mostly-K, or even entirely K*, then that means any given reproduction cycle produces few children. What I meant was that having males permanently bond to single females means less reproductive cycles, compared to one male having more than one partner on aveage. (e.g. a group of men reproduce with a group of women "all at once". If there are fewer men then women, this produces more children per male then the Na'vi model.)

*The pressure for R-type strategies that existed from disease before industrial medicine doesn't seem to exist for the Na'vi. That in turn might be an explanation for why Na'vi tribes so stay small enough to be sustainable on hunting-gathering alone.

The other thing is that "Eywa" (which is really just a massive super-organism with intelligence and lots of organic servers and hard disks to store things in) may have been able to manipulate the evolution of the species to be a certain way.

That would imply that Eywa is not only approximately as intelligent as a human, but also has "advanced" (compard to anything else bar humans) scientific knowledge. That's a scary idea.

[Raiden]

Originally Posted by Clarke

Since humans (and presumably Na'vi) are mostly-K, or even entirely K*, then that means any given reproduction cycle produces few children. What I meant was that having males permanently bond to single females means less reproductive cycles, compared to one male having more than one partner on aveage. (e.g. a group of men reproduce with a group of women "all at once". If there are fewer men then women, this produces more children per male then the Na'vi model.)

*The pressure for R-type strategies that existed from disease before industrial medicine doesn't seem to exist for the Na'vi. That in turn might be an explanation for why Na'vi tribes so stay small enough to be sustainable on hunting-gathering alone.


That would imply that Eywa is not only approximately as intelligent as a human, but also has "advanced" (compard to anything else bar humans) scientific knowledge. That's a scary idea.

Well, that's not the only reason R-strategists are so successful; if you're an arthropod that produces 347 offspring in a given season, it doesn't matter if 30 are eaten before they reach their first molt. Another advantage is that you can get natural selection going right out of the box; when I sent my male A. versicolor tarantula out on a breeding date, I asked the person who owns the female how many babies would result. She said 700; I wasn't surprised, because in nature, the young of many spiders cannibalize their weaker, deformed, or less fit siblings, which boosts their fat stores and gives them a "starter pack" of protein to help them grow faster.

But yeah, the Na'vi would never be able to live at peace with Pandora's ecosystem if they just kept reproducing. I think that "Eywa" is capable of such things, but has formed a mutualistic relationship with the Na'vi; they guard it, and it helps them survive in discrete ways. I don't think that "Eywa" would give the Na'vi knowledge of science, because of how dangerous that is from a preservation perspective and because it would probably break the mutualistic relationship (i.e. they find out that Eywa isn't a deity and lose interest or something).

[keyeung]

Fall from grace,

This has been a long and complex journey, not sure if to make a new post but it seems fitting to continue where this sojourn was left.

The Eyktan sought council from the Tsahik from a nearby clan and in the end after many years went through the immense pain of chosing and was chosen by another, it was not popular with the clan and some wanted his head but in the end the choice was accepted.

Children came and all was well........

One day, the one whom was lost to him returned


Your thoughts please

[Clarke]

Originally Posted by Raiden

But yeah, the Na'vi would never be able to live at peace with Pandora's ecosystem if they just kept reproducing. I think that "Eywa" is capable of such things, but has formed a mutualistic relationship with the Na'vi; they guard it, and it helps them survive in discrete ways. I don't think that "Eywa" would give the Na'vi knowledge of science, because of how dangerous that is from a preservation perspective and because it would probably break the mutualistic relationship (i.e. they find out that Eywa isn't a deity and lose interest or something).

You're attributing an awful lot of intelligence to a network of plants.

Also, in ancient societies, children represented an investment, so if you were wealthy, you could afford to have more of them. It's only with agriculture that you got to the point of being able to break anything.