What iss true freedom, and is it attainable?

[Theorist]

I wanna see what you guys think and where this conversation goes.

[Eltu]

Perhaps a more important question, is true freedom desirable?

If you use the anarchistic definition of freedom - the ability to act in any way desired without any artificial barriers - it has been the consensus among almost all civilizations and cultures to date that there need to be some restrictions of freedom in order to ensure happiness for the vast majority of people. The obvious example is our modern justice system which specifically limits the freedom of the individual to make sure that most people can live their lives without fear.

Whether this is a good thing or not is naturally up for debate, but the fact that it has let our societies survive thus far is probably something worth taking into consideration.



Of course, this is a societal perspective on freedom - one can also go the philosophical route and compare true freedom with free choice, which is a far less tangible subject. Whether we as humans and living beings have the freedom to make our own choices is an interesting question, and one that perhaps we will never find a clear answer to. Are our actions and choices our own? Are we slaves to a grander scheme beyond our comprehension? If nothing else it's an fascinating subject.

[Crickett]

No, although I have to define my terms. To me, freedom in this context is the ability to do anything you want. ANYTHING. And unless you're Q, there's going to be some kind of limitation on you, be it psychological, physiological, physical, logical, technological or societal.

Can you hold a conversation with a dolphin? Eat the empirical tastiest food ever? Travel to the planet Vulcan? Divide by zero? Create energy? Bring happiness to everyone in the world without effecting brain chemistry? Be in five places at once?

In this sense, no, I don't think freedom exists.


So now I'm going to change the definition a bit. Do I think the ability to do anything you want within certain legal and frankly sensible limits is attainable? Yes I do. It's why I play the lottery when the number goes high enough. Yeah, I still wouldn't be able to do all of the things I listed earlier; but if I had enough money that I never had to worry about it again, I could live practically anywhere, and do practically anything within legal limits. I wouldn't be able to shift the Earth's orbit, cure cancer, turn the planet Mars into Pandora or develop telekinesis, hence my use of the word "practically".

[Theorist]

Originally Posted by Eltu

Perhaps a more important question, is true freedom desirable?

If you use the anarchistic definition of freedom - the ability to act in any way desired without any artificial barriers - it has been the consensus among almost all civilizations and cultures to date that there need to be some restrictions of freedom in order to ensure happiness for the vast majority of people. The obvious example is our modern justice system which specifically limits the freedom of the individual to make sure that most people can live their lives without fear.

Whether this is a good thing or not is naturally up for debate, but the fact that it has let our societies survive thus far is probably something worth taking into consideration.



Of course, this is a societal perspective on freedom - one can also go the philosophical route and compare true freedom with free choice, which is a far less tangible subject. Whether we as humans and living beings have the freedom to make our own choices is an interesting question, and one that perhaps we will never find a clear answer to. Are our actions and choices our own? Are we slaves to a grander scheme beyond our comprehension? If nothing else it's an fascinating subject.

I think it's a good point you bring up, if true freedom is desirable. I suppose freedom from consequence is then undesirable.

In terms of polotical freedom though, I'm going to go and say it is attainable and is perhaps the most important type of freedom, and what true freedom really is. Because, I think if we consider true freedom (to be able to do whatever we want, when we want, without consequence) this is simply impossible, and also undesirable.

However, I think true freedom comes from ones own ability to support themselves. I do not think that you can have ultimate freedom so long as you rely on others. I think it is impossible to have a society based on true freedom, because society implies relying on each other. I think if one is aware of the implications of their actions, is self supportable, and is aware of how their thoughts and actions are influenced by the environment around them, then I believe they have obtained the closest thing to true freedom possible in a society: they can support themselves independtly from society, and are aware of their environments influence on their actions.

I do not think there is a higher freedom than this, since it is impossible to be free from responsibility and consequence.

[Ja'k Dawsiin]

true freedom is to be free of the binding chains of money, taxes, and ever-grasping claws of a socialist gov't that wants to make every decision for you.

[Téyan]

We live in a material world dictated by law and ran by criminals. No human is free and most people wouldn't want to be. Too much responsibility required. You must be self reliant and actually know things. We live in a world filled with people who only know how to use Google. (artificial intelligence)

I am quite discontent with many aspects of human life. You exist therefore you owe the government money. It's slavery. The worst aspect of taxation is that it knows no limits. The death tax being a prime example. You died and now your family owes the government money because you died. I don't see how some of these even pass. Then you have the ones that only the government could get away with like income taxes. Who thought that nonsense up?

It would never work for an individual...

"Do you have a job? Great! I have an idea... You do all the work and when you get paid I get a cut."

[Unknown]

I don't think there could ever be a system in which everyone is happy, people are always going to be different and want different things, so when we're all living together in one big society there have to be compromises. Society doesn't work when it revolves around one person, so unless you're entirely self-sufficient living out in the jungle by yourself, you have to give to be able to take.

Originally Posted by Téyan

Then you have the ones that only the government could get away with like income taxes. Who thought that nonsense up?

It doesn't feel fair when your money gets taken away, but it does actually go somewhere. Roads, public transportation, education, science and medical research, programs to keep people out of poverty (which even though it might not feel like your responsibility, a society ravished by poverty is not one anybody would like to live in, rich or not), healthcare and defense (I personally do not agree with how many tax dollars are spent on defense, but some parts are still a necessity in our current society).

So while the most personal part of the process is the negative feeling of your money being taken away, it's all contributing to making the world go 'round, which if it weren't happening would make for a more miserable life. I don't think there's a single person who thinks the system is fair, but that's part of the beauty of us humans all living together. We bring our different ideas and opinions to the table to try to make a better world. In exchange we get some pretty cool things by helping each other out.