Will Avatar 2 Be A Failure?

[Wind12]

I do apologize for my comment in the middle of your quote, I tried to fix it but failed, lol

[torukmakto4]

Wow I have a real hard time not being overly sharp. None of that is directed at anyone here for absolute certain, definitely not you Wind12!

It just deeply bothers me to see that sort of negative stuff even mentioned here.

[Wind12]

That's okay alot of times I am here after work and I am not sure that I have made clear statements as well, I just didn't want you to think I was agreeing with the haters, because I don't

[discounthobo159]

Originally Posted by SecOps

Couldn't be any more of a failure than Avatar was I guess?

JC really needs to reconsider what his 'hook' for the audiences is here, and match the marketing with that.

If this is going to be eight hours of 'Bad industrial company and every 2 dimensional character' along with Col boogyman hassling our Native friends, RIP Cameron, it's been a hell of a ride.

I agree with this. The first Avatar - although a real feat for digital effects and motion detection - the story line was about as bland as a ryvita cracker.

I mean as much as I like how the film looks, the plot is undeniably (dont argue with me on this people) a rip-off fern gully/ dances with wolves.

Typical American dude goes in and does what the natives do *best*. Which is ironic for a film that happens to have an anti-colonialist message.

Also people keep saying that JC would never let Avatar 2 be a failure, and has a "perfect track record" on films. ermmmmm who directed Piranha and Piranha Part Two: The Spawning? Go on. Tell me. JC isn't perfect and neither was Avatar.

What I mean by "bringing more to the table then special effects" - is well... exactly that. Some may be happy just to see another Avatar film. *I* on the other hand - have the bar set a little higher - and so should you. If people don't question directors, things *can* go wrong - even to the best of directors. George Lucas, hired a whole crew of a** kissers to work with him on Star Wars: The Clone Wars and look how that turned out? We got 2D characters and Jajabinks

[torukmakto4]

Originally Posted by discounthobo159

I agree with this. The first Avatar - although a real feat for digital effects and motion detection - the story line was about as bland as a ryvita cracker.

That is an opinion, and I don't agree with it. There is absolutely nothing about Avatar (2009) that is, in any way, "bland" to me or ever has been. It is classical/monomythical, and highly effective for doing it well and using the strengths of those traditions to their best, like Titanic before it, but it is absolutely the inverse of "bland". More like your analogical cracker was full of ghost pepper.

If you really do see it that way yourself, that is fine, but since this thread is about the prediction of Avatar 2+ success, this position also happens to be the one of an internet minority that has failed repeatedly at predicting the success of Cameron's massive late era films and are mostly just salty that they did succeed and the masses don't agree with their views.

Special effects, please. Given the success, and specifically the extremely protracted success of Avatar over multiple months in its theatrical run (similar to Titanic once again, which was not terribly effects-driven) it does not fit the pattern of a film that pivots on flash no matter how hard anyone tries to deny that Avatar's storyline worked.

Originally Posted by discounthobo159

I mean as much as I like how the film looks, the plot is undeniably (dont argue with me on this people) a rip-off fern gully/ dances with wolves.

I'm sorry, but I am going to argue. That is a played-out, battered generic argument which fails to say anything of true merit, because it is a reductio ad absurdem. It holds water at a paragraph or less summary's level of generality discarding all identifying and unique elements. There are also far greater number of filmed and written works going back to the earliest recorded history that contain the same archetypes than just these three, and given that, singling out and faulting Avatar among them all is daft. Either the archetype is worth demeriting most all of them (definitely modern examples like Dances with Wolves, and before anyone ever says Poca-you know what that was released after Project 880/Avatar was written) for being present, or it is not. And the correct answer is that it is not. The archetype is an archetype for a very good reason i.e. it works.

This is to say nothing of expanding the criticism to archetypes in general which would imply faulting nearly every blockbuster and many classics i.e. Star Wars is a Campbell monomyth, Titanic is Romeo and Juliet on a boat, and the like.

Originally Posted by discounthobo159

Typical American dude goes in and does what the natives do *best*. Which is ironic for a film that happens to have an anti-colonialist message.

Short version, nothing about him that is "American-ish/Western" is actually critical to his success as a hero, aside from the obvious tactical advantage of being a defector with inside knowledge on the alien enemy.

I just got into this in another place recently about "cultural superiority" implications and message dissonance in "rebellion from colonialism" storylines and the conclusion was more or less that the root of this perception is audience bias and hypersensitivity to this notion, and that it is arbitrary and idealistic/unrealistic to demand of writers that a protagonist never cross cultural lines because that might be misinterpreted. It is also overly idealistic to expect cultures to be presented always as a black/white value judgement and not as a series of independent strengths and weaknesses, which can include aspects like, say, Jake's USMC training having merit that prepares him for unforeseen challenges.

Originally Posted by discounthobo159

Also people keep saying that JC would never let Avatar 2 be a failure, and has a "perfect track record" on films. ermmmmm who directed Piranha and Piranha Part Two: The Spawning? Go on. Tell me. JC isn't perfect and neither was Avatar.

Check your facts here. JC is not involved or credited on Piranha 1. He did not direct Piranha 2. He was hired, attempted to clean up the mess that was going on at the time (I recall it involved him breaking into the editing room) and was then quickly fired, and yet was credited.

Originally Posted by discounthobo159

What I mean by "bringing more to the table then special effects" - is well... exactly that.

That's what JC did with Avatar.

If I cared about special effects I would be on a forum for some comicbook explosion fest flick. Instead I am here 8 years later for something that hit me like a thousand freight trains at once.

Originally Posted by discounthobo159

George Lucas, hired a whole crew of a** kissers to work with him on Star Wars: The Clone Wars and look how that turned out? We got 2D characters and Jajabinks

Cameron is not George Lucas, and you neglect to mention in your Star Wars example that the films following ANH are generally much better regarded and much better constructed than the reboot prequal trilogy, and that is where Avatar is, in Star Wars's 1979.

[Wind12]

The haters of Avatar try so hard, oh well, I'am excited for the future and will be there in the theater as soon as the sequel is out having the time of my life, no amount of the same over used arguments no matter how many times they are recycled are going to change that.

[SecOps]

The Director of ALIENS, TERMINATOR, TRUE LIES, TITANIC (lulwat?)

BRINGS YOU AVATAR!!!!

COL. Your not in Kansas anymore! You are on Pandora!

PANDORA WILL EAT YOU ALIVE SON!!! EVERYTHING WANTS TO KILL YOU!!

WOWWAHHHHH MUST BE GOOD!

And what did we get? Guy in a wheelchair with a chip on his shoulder, ends up piloting an Avatar and is told upfront by a native girl that his running around like a child, because apprently Pandora is just misunderstood.

Romance plot: CHECK
Funny scenes, some good humour: CHECK
Anything relating to the hype in those trailers? NOPE.

This film didn't engage me at all.. I felt like I was witness to a conflict I couldn't care less for.. Col. sounded like he was trying to cope on a futuristic vietnam with wild animals and plants, instead his just working for some jerk that wants to spin around with the locals and then just decides to waste them anyway and for what.. to build a mine over their home... boring.

District 9 did it so much better.

EDIT: When the native lady actually finds jake in human form and does the whole I see you bit, that was really touching. Granted this film has nice scenes but the Jake story/plot should not have been the main story, at least combined with another one or something.

[torukmakto4]

What the hell are you even talking about, SecOps?

[SecOps]

Originally Posted by torukmakto4

What the hell are you even talking about, SecOps?

Well from the look of it, seems like I was complaing about how the trailer didnt match the film at all.

And a few other issues.

[discounthobo159]

Originally Posted by torukmakto4

What the hell are you even talking about, SecOps?

He's saying what I (and many, many others) believe. My opinion (which is subjective) is that James focused too much on the visual aspects of Avatar - and he did an absolutely amazing job at that - developing a whole world which audiences had never seen before - but his one down-fall? The plot and development of the characters was neglected. The human characters are indeed very 1 dimensional. I would elaborate further but your clear stubbornness has difficulty accepting that Avatar *does* have faults; So I won't bother. But keep in mind this doesn't make the film bad.

Otherwise why would I be here? After years of watching Avatar I've become bored of the story line and the predictable characters - whilst the visuals still go on to inspire me and my art. Whereas there are other films that I have watched far more times - which I have not yet tired of, simply because they have more depth.

Originally Posted by Wind12

The haters of Avatar try so hard, oh well, I'am excited for the future and will be there in the theater as soon as the sequel is out having the time of my life, no amount of the same over used arguments no matter how many times they are recycled are going to change that.

Firstly: I'm not a hater. Why would I waste my time here?

Secondly: I too am excited for the next Avatar, and me speculating on its "failure" or possible "mediocrity" does not mean I hate Avatar - in fact It means the opposite. Means a give a sh*t or two. Cameron doesn't just release his films for die hard fans though, he also needs to appeal to non-avatar fans, who unlike you are more willing to admit that a film has faults as it holds no sentimental value to them.

Thirdly: Yes some of my "arguments" have been used before - doesn't make them any less true. There are countless world renowned film critics who have said the exact same thing, simple fact is that we have seen *similar* plot lines before.

[SecOps]

Spot on.. a lot of these people are hardcore fans because the film delivered what they wanted, native stuff, jakes plot was enough for them etc.

Kinda like Blade Runner,,, I thought it was OK but the die-hards adore the film.. Avatar appeals to it's own, but that was the major problem and why it died off despite the huge success.. unless you are interested in the aborginal stuf and jake.. the film does nothing for you.

If it was about humans trying to survive on pandora, if it was like the trailer they used to MARKET the film to people.. it would still be discussed today.. but instead we have a remnant surviving on a forum. JC can make it big but he has to do it right,.,

[Lone warrior]

I'm planning to watch Avatar 2 with a clean positive mind, and I won't care about other's opinions. If JC does the same thing, that he did with Terminator, than I think Avatar 2 will be a success. My brother said, when Terminator 2 had come out, people had been on the same opinion, that it would be a failure. And it wasn't a failure, am I right?

(And sorry for the reported speech mess. It's probably full of grammar mistakes.)

[torukmakto4]

Originally Posted by SecOps

Well from the look of it, seems like I was complaing about how the trailer didnt match the film at all.

That trailer, is an oft cited example of modern film trailers being overly spoiler-filled and giving away too much of the plot basics. How again does it not match the film? It matches the film a bit too well, by most accounts.

Originally Posted by discounthobo159

but your clear stubbornness has difficulty accepting that Avatar *does* have faults

Oh, I accept numerous faults. I just don't, and won't, accept some of your opinions that you apparently think I ought to despite acknowledging their subjectivity.

Originally Posted by discounthobo159

My opinion (which is subjective) is that James focused too much on the visual aspects of Avatar - and he did an absolutely amazing job at that - developing a whole world which audiences had never seen before

The underlying concepts are the actual meat of worldbuilding.

Originally Posted by discounthobo159

The plot and development of the characters was neglected.

Or... the plot was constructed and the characters developed in ways you don't personally like, which you then ascribe to lack of attention, effort or intent when overall Avatar1 has been a decades old project that Cameron, a very detail-oriented person and an engineer, has chased after as a magnum opus.

I love these characters, and Avatar did very much enable me to grok them. I love this plot, and its wisdom rings all too true. These define a success, so that is my 2 cents.

It's OK to just not like a storyteller's tactics. For me it's Nolan, I find his structures dissonant, his attempts at depth and symbolism terribly shallow and single-layered and his films generally not effective or memorable in the slightest to me. Leave me cold as ice, and I'm not entirely sure of all the reasons. Nor do I feel any need to go out and bash, harass fans, or accuse the guy of not doing his job, or make personally-biased speculations that Nolan flicks are going to fail, or insinuate that past ones have quality problems because I dislike them. It's just not my wavelength, and that's OK. It's art.

Originally Posted by discounthobo159

The human characters are indeed very 1 dimensional.

They are not so under the surface. Dig more.

This is a subject I could do a blog post about - Avatar's boldness and extremity overall. Much of Avatar is built to do maximum impact. Ethically, emotionally, everything goes rail to rail. Fundamentally it is a tale of heaven and hell (not really implying that in any religious sense). I was in a very late run, late night screening of it one time where this old dude, probably a war veteran got up, saw me nearby (this was a rare fairly empty, peaceful theater) and said, "That is some powerful stuff". Just from the look on his face he had been hit really hard. Was really cool and wild to witness that reaction. It's the same experience I know so well.

There is a caveat here, and that is how easily subtlety can be buried. If nothing else were going on, a detail like Selfridge's expression watching the monitors post-Hometree would be picked up on more often. You need to have some dynamic range.

Originally Posted by discounthobo159

predictable

In a discussion with someone else things are converging similarly to this point... most every gripe rooted in not satisfying an incoming expectation of suspense. It's a monomyth, and monomyths are predictable. What do I have to say to that? Well, spoiler alert: Titanic sinks! Avatar is the same deal. It never bothered me, because I always knew what had to happen here. I went into Avatar knowing full well that our interstellar colonizers had to get their asses kicked, just like I went to titanic knowing we're going to see something regarding an iceberg and a sinking unsinkable ship. The trailers for A1 give away plotpoints like candy, I don't know how it is so many Sherlocks have come up with "predictable" as if that is an insight. Yeah; no ****.

But that's my opinion. I am very jaded in general and unpredictable does nothing for me. I surmise part of the reason I have seen Avatar a jillion times, and still find it about 10 times as satisfying to rewatch it as watching other films for the first time, is that it doesn't bank on a state of unfamiliarity to function. It only gets better when you know it better.

Originally Posted by discounthobo159

Whereas there are other films that I have watched far more times - which I have not yet tired of, simply because they have more depth.

Depth? For a taste of that, do some research on the roots of the concept of an avatar i.e. in hindu mythology. Now rewatch and note how many layers there are to the concept of avatars in the film beyond the physical namesake ones. i.e. Jake obviously drives an avatar, his brother's avatar. He possibly IS his brother's avatar, in another sense. He is Eywa's avatar in the sense of divine incarnation or servant, as toruk makto. His character is, arguably, specifically constructed to function as an avatar of the audience member more than any other defining attribute. The film is strongly an ideological projection/treatise of its writer and thus could be regarded in a way, as an avatar, a projection or a form taken.

How about all the really oddly parallel "coffin traveling through gateway" imagery scattered throughout the film tying in death/rebirth themes? Tommy in the crematorium coffin rolling into the incinerator. Cut immediately to Jake rolling out of the cryo capsule on the isv. Then human-Jake into a coffin-like link unit, and avatar-Jake out of amnio tank, off gurney, out door and away into the free world. One life ends/Another begins. "It's my birthday after all"... was actually written as "It's my FUNERAL after all" and the meaning is the same.

Want depth? Get digging. It is more comprehensive and thoughtful than token lines of dialogue attached to characters to spoonfeed their every motive however.

Originally Posted by discounthobo159

renowned film critics

Renowned does not mean jack ****. At the unprecedented scale of something like Avatar, $2.8 billion theatrical and best selling bluray/DVD ever made, where there are clear ulterior (financial, career) motives tied up in an adversarial collision of this and "everyone else", they ought to be taken with a grain of salt. After all there were some scumbags in the Academy the year Avatar was nominated who were attempting to persuade and bribe others to vote against it.

Originally Posted by discounthobo159

Cameron doesn't just release his films for die hard fans though, he also needs to appeal to non-avatar fans, who unlike you are more willing to admit that a film has faults as it holds no sentimental value to them.

If there is "sentimental value", this value was one hundred percent generated via the effective function of the film.

Implications that Avatar sequels must appeal only to a diehard, and that the expected small number of true diehards is representative of anything as to popularity, do not follow. There are degrees of fandom. The vast majority of those degrees grant appeal. Only a few degrees involve diehardness; living and breathing something. A great many people saw and loved Avatar and have never posted on the internet about it, ALL of my family included (note that no one I know participates actively in internet discussion of films aside from myself, and my father works in the film industry).

The film also has highly positive reviews and ratings even on the internet, with the influence of the crowd of trolls voting hyperbolic 1/10 scores and posting hyperbolic negativity averaged in.

Originally Posted by SecOps

Avatar appeals to it's own, but that was the major problem and why it died off despite the huge success

Your claim that anything has "died off" is daft and baseless. Its presence on the internet is fairly good to excellent for a solitary film of its type released 8 years ago with no followups and few tie-ins since, also considering the database loss of what was by far the most active forum. That was an impact from which there is a lot of recovery to do - at a time when there is just no energy to do that, because we are in a content drought.

Example being Inception: Inception | Nolan Fans Forums - Look at all them 2015 post dates in there huh. Oh yeah Avatar has really unexpectedly died down huh. Yeah... No. We're doing good for being in this position. When A2 hits this is gonna blow up like all hell again.

Both of you had better start ordering that roast crow, because you're gonna be eating a whole lot of it.

Originally Posted by SecOps

If it was about humans trying to survive on pandora ...native stuff

Oh look, a salty skyperson. Headsup, Ranger Rick - you lose. You always lose, and you will burn if you don't grab that wheel and steer.

There are only people.

There is only one side. Ever.

[Dr. Na'vi]

Originally Posted by torukmakto4

Instead I am here 8 years later for something that hit me like a thousand freight trains at once.

Damn right!

IMO Avatar has some flaws (including non plot related ones), but they don't really affect me that much because everything else is just so ****ing brilliant.
I consider myself a hardcore fan, Avatar is a masterpiece of world building.
I love the "hardness" of the scifi and all the little details, the Na'vi race, the philosophy, the mind transfer/Avatar/Eywa concept, the environmental message, the visuals, the camerawork, the soundtrack and so much more. I could go on and on.
The actual plot? It's good, but there's room for improvement.

For some (including discounthobo and me), the story of Avatar is just not "enough" for endless rewatches. That's all.

Also, I don't think that the similarity to other stories like Pocahontas is a bad thing per se, Avatar's version of that story is perfect to introduce the world, create a conflict and deliver the message. Even Cameron himself is fully aware of the similarities, he named the protagonist Jake Sully after all.

BTT:

I'm optimistic about A2, Cameron got this and will meet our expectations, no doubt.
I think that possibly negative external influences like the different script writers are going to be minimal at best and everything is going to be "Cameron-approved".

[Ja'k Dawsiin]

Originally Posted by SecOps

The Director of ALIENS, TERMINATOR, TRUE LIES, TITANIC (lulwat?)

BRINGS YOU AVATAR!!!!

COL. Your not in Kansas anymore! You are on Pandora!

PANDORA WILL EAT YOU ALIVE SON!!! EVERYTHING WANTS TO KILL YOU!!

WOWWAHHHHH MUST BE GOOD!

And what did we get? Guy in a wheelchair with a chip on his shoulder, ends up piloting an Avatar and is told upfront by a native girl that his running around like a child, because apprently Pandora is just misunderstood.

Romance plot: CHECK
Funny scenes, some good humour: CHECK
Anything relating to the hype in those trailers? NOPE.

This film didn't engage me at all.. I felt like I was witness to a conflict I couldn't care less for.. Col. sounded like he was trying to cope on a futuristic vietnam with wild animals and plants, instead his just working for some jerk that wants to spin around with the locals and then just decides to waste them anyway and for what.. to build a mine over their home... boring.

District 9 did it so much better.

EDIT: When the native lady actually finds jake in human form and does the whole I see you bit, that was really touching. Granted this film has nice scenes but the Jake story/plot should not have been the main story, at least combined with another one or something.