An Unarmed America?

[Fkeu'itan]

I too (obviously) live in the UK. A country where 'proper' guns (It will become clear why i say this later) are very, very difficult to get hold of. There is gun crime over here but the stats are very low. In comparison with a country with the US where guns are more freely available, there is a considerable difference.

As for the 'when the situation arises' mentality, let's consider a stand-off. Would it not be far better if those on the wrong side of the law had no weapons to shoot back with? And even if they did, arming both sides plus throwing in most likely frightened or adrenaline-filled armed civilians is just adding wood to the fire.

On the black market argument - It goes without saying that in a country where guns are being shipped in legally and are far liberally controlled, the black market with thrive much more as once legal guns which, under government control, would have a hefty pricetag are sold on the black market for a fraction of the price. Take a look at the AK-47 for example.

In this country, weapons are so difficult to get hold of that criminals are having to actually physically go to the countries where the weapons are produced and smuggle them back in through customs, a process that often fails. Also a process that is far more difficult than not having to go anywhere due to the weapons already being readily shipped into the country. The existance of a black market obviously means there is going to be more armed criminals, despite gun restrictions but if you have special armed sections of the police (as we do over here) who can deal with it in a professional and controlled way, surely that's much better than having reckless vigilante justice...?

But here comes the clincher.

I, somewhat ironically, own a weapon myself.

I own a sport air rifle.
If I were looking to commit an armed crime, I think i would be much more hesitant about trying to take on fully-automatic armed marksmen with a single-action air rifle that fires .22 metal pellets at a very low fire rate than I would with an automatic or semi-automatic assault rifle that can fire 600 7.62mm rounds per minute.

My gun is very low powered compared to some on the UK market and it still cost me a lot of money. The price of higher powered rifles in this country skyrockets to prices that the common criminal could most likely not afford, and even then they are not even in the same league as a large calibre weapon, such weapons that in the US can be bought for literally half the price of my rifle.

I can understand the 'guns for sport' argument completely, that's why I own mine. (I target shoot, I don't hunt.)
And I also obviously understand that most people who own a weapon of some description aren't looking to kill someone... But I don't feel the need to take it everywhere with me, (even though I couldn't, but that's besides the point) because I feel safe knowing that the gun laws are so well controlled in our country (although what I said previously may be somewhat contradictory) that virtually every single person around me is unarmed and that should a 'situation' ever arise, there will be people far, far, far better qualified to deal with the situation professionally than I personally ever could, arriving on the scene in seconds.

Don't get me wrong, our controlled system isn't 100% perfect, but in my opinion, it's a fair sight better than the US's (comparitively) liberal system.

[ZenitYerkes]

Originally Posted by Harvester of Sorrow

CRIMINALS DO NOT OBEY THE LAW. What makes you think adding a gun control law will stop them.

A gun control will prevent an idiot from owing a gun and using it improperly. How many homicides have been committed when someone had taken the law into their own hands?

Let me add the reason why I'd use a gun instead of a knife is not because I want to leave no evidence; it's because I want it to be effective and quick. What's easier: pull the trigger or stab eight times a person?

[madman]

Stabbing is very messy too!! Ok enough with the gore. I own a 9mm glock and 12guage hunting shotgun. Never used either to shoot at anything living. I use them for sport. But if I had the choice, being an American, I'd rather be able to have them legally. I do not think criminals here would have any trouble smuggling guns from Mexico if it were to be illegal for the average citizen to own a gun. The drug problems we have are a clear indication that the government cannot do much about it.

Give CWP to good citizens more often so these criminals think twice. If the students at Virgina Tech. Were legally able to carry their concieled weapons on campus the events of that day wouldnt have been so horific the student behind all of this shouldn't have legally been able yo buy those handguns anyway. The system here is broken in so many ways.

[ZenitYerkes]

Originally Posted by madman

Stabbing is very messy too!! Ok enough with the gore. I own a 9mm glock and 12guage hunting shotgun. Never used either to shoot at anything living. I use them for sport. But if I had the choice, being an American, I'd rather be able to have them legally. I do not think criminals here would have any trouble smuggling guns from Mexico if it were to be illegal for the average citizen to own a gun. The drug problems we have are a clear indication that the government cannot do much about it.

Give CWP to good citizens more often so these criminals think twice. If the students at Virgina Tech. Were legally able to carry their concieled weapons on campus the events of that day wouldnt have been so horific the student behind all of this shouldn't have legally been able yo buy those handguns anyway. The system here is broken in so many ways.

Even if they were allowed to use guns, somebody would have panicked and would have shot several times that student. And someone would have said "Hey that's was my friend f*cker!"

And the things would have kept going on, even without that homicidal guy, adding some more deaths and murderers to the list.

Guns can prevent crime, but most probably will cause crime. And man, how they do it.

[Human No More]

If everyone has a gun, then yes, when someone decides to kill someone, everyone will likely shoot them, but there would be so many more of those situations. Whenever you're really angry at someone and want to punch them, just think what might happen if you have a gun... Not a good thought... Yes, the person responsible would get killed faster and possibly get to shoot less people, but there would suddenly be a LOT more shootings. Not to mention the addition of guns into crimes such as robberies and muggings...

[Grif]

Originally Posted by madman

Stabbing is very messy too!! Ok enough with the gore. I own a 9mm glock and 12guage hunting shotgun. Never used either to shoot at anything living. I use them for sport. But if I had the choice, being an American, I'd rather be able to have them legally. I do not think criminals here would have any trouble smuggling guns from Mexico if it were to be illegal for the average citizen to own a gun. The drug problems we have are a clear indication that the government cannot do much about it.

Give CWP to good citizens more often so these criminals think twice. If the students at Virgina Tech. Were legally able to carry their concieled weapons on campus the events of that day wouldnt have been so horific the student behind all of this shouldn't have legally been able yo buy those handguns anyway. The system here is broken in so many ways.

Guns are illegal in Mexico, they are smuggled in from the United States.

[Советский меч]

"When guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns"

"When guns are outlawed, I will become an outlaw"

[Советский меч]

Originally Posted by ZenitYerkes

A gun control will prevent an idiot from owing a gun and using it improperly. How many homicides have been committed when someone had taken the law into their own hands?

Let me add the reason why I'd use a gun instead of a knife is not because I want to leave no evidence; it's because I want it to be effective and quick. What's easier: pull the trigger or stab eight times a person?

Yes because it really requires your vital organs and vessels to be punctured 8 times before dying. wrong. Guns= loud, residue,trace the bullet and gun
knife = quiet, no residue, and no way to trace.
can we please end the argument now. Where is your proof that it will stop someone? If they have a gun and want to do damage, gun control is the least of their worries.

[Sight]

First off, let me preface this by saying this is an area I am quite familiar with, as I was required to do a research paper on this a few months ago.

It is far easier to blame the gun for the crime, than the criminal. This thread is filled with government issued hyperbole. Military Grade guns in Mexico generally come from government warehouses that are raided by cartels. These guns, originally, are manufactured at military contracting companies in the United States, then given to Mexico as part of an arms agreement between the two governments. However, this doesn't stop cartels from raiding the shipments and procuring military grade weapons. Furthermore, this also doesn't stop the media from implying these firearms come from civilian sources in the United States. Please, tell me, where the average citizen can walk in and purchase a Fully Automatic -anything- or the rediculous destructive devices the cartels get their hands on without paying 30,000 to 60,000 USD and passing ridiculous levels of screening: all the while having uncle same breathing down your neck for *ever*. This is a loaded subject, and in an age where far fewer people live anywhere close to firearms/crossbows/bows/outdoor implements/ misinformation is far too easily spread: most often by the government.


I urge all of you who wish to know the real facts on this subject to view Gun Facts - Gun Control | Facts | Debunk | Myths . It is unbiased, and composed of actual facts, not false "facts" that are spewed from those on both sides of the argument.

Furthermore, allow me to say that I would be perfectly happy living in a world *completely* without guns. However, as long as my government fancies itself in need of firearms, I too as a citizen should be allowed to purchase a firearm if I so choose. Perhaps it is my inner anarchist speaking, but I get real antsy if a government (or a private group for that matter) begins to imply that I am unable to protect myself and my family and that I must rely on them to protect me.

Also: just as some inflammatory evidence, the United States isn't the most violent nation in the first world. That crown belongs to the area of Scotland in the United Kingdom. Scotland tops list of world's most violent countries - Times Online
With a chance of being assaulted three times that as in the United States, I'd hardly say gun control, is anything more than a political ploy to keep citizenry afraid and controlled. Fear, Control, and Coersion are the hallmarks of Western Political society. In the modern age, such coersion is alot more subtle than "OMGOD COMMEHS" or "OMGOD WITCHES" or "OMGOD MOORS" or "OMGOD PAGANS". Or maybe it isn't, maybe most people just don't want to see it.

Now, don't get me wrong. I personally have *no problem at all* with gun control if the entire nation practices it. If the Government, Military, Police Force, and Citizenry all decided that they will not allow firearms in their nation: and all abide by this, I have no problem with it. In fact Tonga, a constitutional monarchy in the south pacific, practices this very ideology. And quite frankly, I may be living there someday.

[madman]

I feel that there are wayyy too many guns in the US for guns to be outlawed. All the criminals would still use guns while the law abiding citizens are left defenseless. I will keep my guns, thanks!

[ZenitYerkes]

Well I've completely run out of arguments and personally stopped caring about this debate since 1, nobody replied in five days I think; 2, I think that American gun laws and regulations are not my business; 3, I have to rely constantly on contradictive information I cannot prove right or wrong; and 4, this debate has no actual point: we've been talking about five different things at the same time.

I believe an hypothetic population would be safer if guns are just given to the authorities (police, army,...). Of course that's what Soviets did, when you impose totalitarist communism you don't want surprises while you're ruling all over the country. But this is a democracy, heck. Sure that gun laws can make good in it.

Also, it's more likely for someone to end up with a headshot when somebody points at your face with a gun if you carry one rather than if you didn't. The criminal gets nervous and boom, game over. That or you kill the criminal if you get nervous and place the bullet you wanted to place in his knee in his lungs instead.

But that's just me.

This topic is touchy: if I am right it means you have to take out your "security means". If you are, it means I can't be safe in the US without carrying a gun with me.

And we both hate those thoughts, don't we?

[josie20]

Originally Posted by madman

I feel that there are wayyy too many guns in the US for guns to be outlawed. All the criminals would still use guns while the law abiding citizens are left defenseless. I will keep my guns, thanks!

Do you want to reduce the number of outlaws with guns and the related crimes as a consequence? I have two words: Martial Law. o_O

[madman]

Originally Posted by josie20

Do you want to reduce the number of outlaws with guns and the related crimes as a consequence? I have two words: Martial Law. o_O

Heck, legalizing MJ would do better for this country than making guns illegal. The mexican drug lords get a very large chunk of their revenue through the sale of MJ. With that comes guns and death.

[josie20]

Originally Posted by madman

Heck, legalizing MJ would do better for this country than making guns illegal. The mexican drug lords get a very large chunk of their revenue through the sale of MJ. With that comes guns and death.

I agree completely. I honestly don't think it would be bad to have some military presence, especially in the areas that are high in crime. I have a friend in the National Guard and she doesn't do anything but meet with her superiors once a month. I don't see why they couldn't post people in the National Guard in high crime areas like the inner cities. I mean, she's getting paid to do nothing. I dunno, I think it would be a good idea. Abolishing the monetary system would virtually get rid of all crime. But I don't see that happening.