Social Minimalism.

[ZenitYerkes]

This is not a thread to purpose an Amish-like lifestyle. What we're trying to do here is to pick a razor and cut off everything unnecessary and excessive; clean up the building, straighten and strengthen the foundations of the system.

Less is more.

The way we're going to act to determine our system would be covering these points:

A) Which are the bare, undeniable and vital basics for a person?
B) Are there other needs, not basic yet essential? (such as: technology, culture,...)
C) Provide a social structure to cover these needs (economy, hierarchy,...)
D) Set up a fair government able to maintain this structure

So we cover the three main parts of every human structure: individual, community and power.

The idea is to make a societal model, not rigid at all; but just to have some kind of reference to focus our progress on simplification instead of adding more and more technology, means and create unnecessary needs.

[Aquaplant]

Originally Posted by ZenitYerkes

What we're trying to do here is to pick a razor and cut off everything unnecessary and excessive; clean up the building, straighten and strengthen the foundations of the system.

But you do know that there is no such thing as excessive, because everything that is there, is because there are so many kinds of different people with different needs and all that jazz.

For you, something might seem excessive, but like with anything in this world, it's all subjective. And as long as there's a wide variety of different individuals, there will always be stuff, that to some, might seem totally redundant.

Not that I'm saying I know anything in particular, just pointing out that things are not always as they might look from one perspective.

[Spock]

Originally Posted by Aquaplant

But you do know that there is no such thing as excessive, because everything that is there, is because there are so many kinds of different people with different needs and all that jazz.

For you, something might seem excessive, but like with anything in this world, it's all subjective. And as long as there's a wide variety of different individuals, there will always be stuff, that to some, might seem totally redundant.

Not that I'm saying I know anything in particular, just pointing out that things are not always as they might look from one perspective.

No, there are boundaries with everything. The consumption of resources and services are not subjective, actually there are slight variations, but that's it. There is a large ammount of waste in this world but I doubt it could be stopped.

[Aquaplant]

Originally Posted by Spock

No, there are boundaries with everything. The consumption of resources and services are not subjective, actually there are slight variations, but that's it. There is a large ammount of waste in this world but I doubt it could be stopped.

I was refering to the fact that people don't change once they've had a taste of something better. Sure we could all survive by living in caves with nothing but water and bread, but I doubt anyone would be willing to do that. I hate to use extreme examples, but that is only because I'm not that good at articulating properly.

And like you said, the world is already going to hell in a handbasket, and there's nothing that can be done anymore. And even if something could be done, I'm quite sure that none of the people calling the shots on these things would be too happy about with their loss of income due to the decrease in consumption and such.

But then again what do I know, only that there are no limits to human greed and stupidity. I should know as I'm one, and particularly stupid to the boot. I don't pretend to be any better than the rest of the scum populating this planet, because I'm not.

[Spock]

Originally Posted by Aquaplant

I was refering to the fact that people don't change once they've had a taste of something better. Sure we could all survive by living in caves with nothing but water and bread, but I doubt anyone would be willing to do that. I hate to use extreme examples, but that is only because I'm not that good at articulating properly.

And like you said, the world is already going to hell in a handbasket, and there's nothing that can be done anymore. And even if something could be done, I'm quite sure that none of the people calling the shots on these things would be too happy about with their loss of income due to the decrease in consumption and such.

But then again what do I know, only that there are no limits to human greed and stupidity. I should know as I'm one, and particularly stupid to the boot. I don't pretend to be any better than the rest of the scum populating this planet, because I'm not.

Fair.

[Woodsprite]

Originally Posted by Aquaplant

I don't pretend to be any better than the rest of the scum populating this planet, because I'm not.

Are you asserting the human population is a mob-based, greedy collective of "scum"?

[Txantsulsam Fyawintxu]

Originally Posted by Woodsprite

Are you asserting the human population is a mob-based, greedy collective of "scum"?

I think he may be saying that the majority of the human population is, but not every single one. Correct me if I'm wrong though. Lol

[ZenitYerkes]

"There is enough for everybody's need, but not enough for anybody's greed" - Mahatma Gandhi

[Txantsulsam Fyawintxu]

Hahaha! I like that quote Zenit! It's so true... Lol Here's another one!



I think this summarizes your entire thread. -nods-

[ZenitYerkes]

Originally Posted by Aquaplant

But you do know that there is no such thing as excessive, because everything that is there, is because there are so many kinds of different people with different needs and all that jazz.

For you, something might seem excessive, but like with anything in this world, it's all subjective. And as long as there's a wide variety of different individuals, there will always be stuff, that to some, might seem totally redundant.

Not that I'm saying I know anything in particular, just pointing out that things are not always as they might look from one perspective.

I want to believe I try to make my perspective as wide as I am able to. My points were:

A) Food and water, housing, a group of people to supply social needs, health care and security.

B) Perhaps, heating system, access to information (books, maybe a PC), telephone for communication and vehicles. This also means it'd be needed an form of energy supply.

I didn't want to post them though, because points C and D were quite lame.

But I am talking in general terms, and I think we know what a person needs to make a living and what's just pure baroquism. When I mentioned "excessive", I mean that for sure having 3 different cars or carrying an iPod everywhere is not a bare basic.

[Fkeu'itan]

Hmm... an interesting proposition.

I would say this to two of the listed questions;

A) At a base level, humans require food, water and shelter to function physically. However I do also believe a form of communication is also incredibly high prioity.

B) I also believe that a culture is essential for basic mental stimulation. The arts would need to be there definitely -music, literature, art etc. - they serve as a unifying force, an identity if you will (even if within these forms are independant divisions. (What this in turn leads to is a question of tolerance and acceptance of variation, but this is another topic.)).
Tools are also essential for basic resource acquisition and although I believe medical care is absolutley necessary, I do not necessarily believe a 'system' is needed for dealing with such needs.
I'm not entirely sure modern (electronic) technology would be completely needed as it would only serve as a drain on resources.

As for questions C) and D), these require deeper thought. I will post again later what I think on these.

[Aquaplant]

Originally Posted by Woodsprite

Are you asserting the human population is a mob-based, greedy collective of "scum"?

It's just my dark view of the world and how it's all going to end in us drowning in waste and rubbish. I usually don't talk about it, because I'd be a hypocrite if I did. I'm not any better, because I don't want to live without the conveniences of modern day life.

And as far as wealth level goes, there's no limit to human greed, we are never satisfied with what we have and we alway crave for more and better. This trait properly harnessed could be a driving force, but usually it just leads to destruction.

At this moment I'm but a mere organic machine consuming resources and going about my meaningless existence.

[Woodsprite]

Originally Posted by Aquaplant

At this moment I'm but a mere organic machine consuming resources and going about my meaningless existence.

Not trying to be preachy or anything, but when I read that I thought, "Man, what do they teach in schools these days??" Not that school had any prime influence on your worldview, but that's the most negative, pessimistic view of life I've ever come across, and you've reminded me how much I love being a Christian.

[Aquaplant]

Originally Posted by Woodsprite

Not trying to be preachy or anything, but when I read that I thought, "Man, what do they teach in schools these days??" Not that school had any prime influence on your worldview, but that's the most negative, pessimistic view of life I've ever come across, and you've reminded me how much I love being a Christian.

It's only that I'm tired of lying to myself and living in a delusion that life somehow has meaning, because inherently it doesn't. It's sort of controversial to the fact that I always try to ignore this gritty reality. The thing is one can't run away from reality save for taking the easy way out, and that's not something I'd rather do.

If living in delusion works for you, then all power to you. I think things so much, that it has lead me to this end. Maybe I'm just the way that I'd never be happy living in ignorance, but that's just speculation.

All I can say is I don't know, I can only try to understand, but rarely succeed.

[Woodsprite]

Originally Posted by Aquaplant

If living in delusion works for you, then all power to you. I think things so much, that it has lead me to this end. Maybe I'm just the way that I'd never be happy living in ignorance, but that's just speculation.

What is this "ignorance" you speak of, what makes you think I'm living in delusion, and why do you suppose life has absolutely no meaning at all?

This is a sad, degrading life you live to think that nothing has any meaning anymore, that no one has a purpose. And to assert that you're in the right no matter what? Where have you been and who taught you to think this way? Sorry if I'm coming across as nosy and insensitive, but what you're saying is just outright untrue, and to suppose I'm "living a delusion" for being religious is a bit apocryphal. I have the feeling you really have no idea about what the world can offer, and that you've been conditioned somehow (no one I've ever met thinks this way) to always assume the visible aspect of things that appear positive on earth aren't really as good as everyone supposes.

...I guess it'd be safe to say I'm trying to deliver the proverbial slap-in-the-face. No offense or anything, I just don't understand why you're so negative.