Tsahaylu, reproduction, sex and pleasure

[JakeFanGirl]

I was wondering the same thing. I am thinking that with Tsahaylu, it's like you are marrying someone. I think the Na'vi could have sexual relations without making Tsahaylu. In that case, they would not be mated for life.

[josie20]

I hate to be the spelling nazi guy...but it's *tsaheylu* not *tsahaylu*

[Isard]

Originally Posted by josie20

I hate to be the spelling nazi guy...but it's *tsaheylu* not *tsahaylu*

(we still love you )

[Woodsprite]

Heil! Heil! Heil!

[rapunzel77]

I think they probably have sex at the same time as tsaheylu. The two are intimately connected when dealing with two Na'vi who are lifemates. I think that tsaheylu is metaphorical for the connections are are meant to have with each other, with our environment, and God/etc. When two Na'vi connect in tsaheylu, it is a sacred and marital act. Hence, it is for life. Sex is a part of that. Granted, it seems that they can have tsaheylu without sex to heighten their bond but sex would be part of the bond as well by cooperating with the creation of a new life.

We also know that tsaheylu is used for bonding with the Ikrans and the other animals. The connection, as we know, is not the same thing as the connection between a Na'vi man and woman. The connection is similar to the bonds that are with a pet (ie. cat or dog, etc) or with a horse and rider.

In a way, tsaheylu is also a metaphor for the different forms of love that we discussed on another thread. The connections they make are indicative of their love for each other, Eywa, their families, and their environment. Total love and connection. We all need this. We can't physically connect in tsaheylu. The closest we can get is sex. That is why it is sacred too. It is the closest bond that we can make. That is also why many religions frown on pre-marital sex because it predisposes a deep, intimate connection and commitment. Without that, sex becomes cheapened and desacralized and ultimately unimportant and discarded .

[Aquaplant]

Originally Posted by rapunzel77

That is also why many religions frown on pre-marital sex because it predisposes a deep, intimate connection and commitment. Without that, sex becomes cheapened and desacralized and ultimately unimportant and discarded .

But why? Isn't it up to the two people involved to decide their own commitment and such? For two willing individuals, sex is between them, and it's not really anyone else's concern. If they want it to be meaningless, it's their choice, as is treating it as a more emotional connection.

Why should sex be considered as some sort of sacred or mysterious etc. thing? I mean it's really the most basic human thing there is, and it's the sole reason and purpose of our existence.

I intended to write more, but it seems my brain is once again refusing to function properly.

[rapunzel77]

Originally Posted by Aquaplant

But why? Isn't it up to the two people involved to decide their own commitment and such? For two willing individuals, sex is between them, and it's not really anyone else's concern. If they want it to be meaningless, it's their choice, as is treating it as a more emotional connection.

Why should sex be considered as some sort of sacred or mysterious etc. thing? I mean it's really the most basic human thing there is, and it's the sole reason and purpose of our existence.

I intended to write more, but it seems my brain is once again refusing to function properly.

You raise some good questions. I know that many people, especially in today's society look at certain religious prohibitions on pre-marital sex as being backward and silly. There are good reasons for it though. Sex creates a VERY strong emotional/physical/spiritual bond between the man and woman. Its very intimate and special. Sure, it is basic in its physical aspects ie. the biological need, the means of reproduction, etc. However, the emotional attachment that it produces is so powerful that even after two people break up the effects of it still endures. That could also be a reason for the emotional breakdowns, depression, etc that gets associated with a terrible break up.

Think about it. It is during sex that the people are at their most vulnerable. There is NOTHING hidden. There can't be. They are saying with their bodies,"I am totally and completely yours and you are completely mine." Nothing hidden. It is the ultimate expression of love. Because it is so intimate, I would think that the person would want to express their love in a sexual way with only one person, their lifemate which in most societies that is encompassed in a marriage.

Sadly, sex has been made a recreation, a pastime. It has been treated as nothing more than just a game, a thing to do. Get a quick pleasure and that is it. No love. No commitment. No sharing of intimacy. This is how it is treated in most movies, advertisements, music, etc. People who get caught up in it are often not happy. I have seen women emotionally ruined by it. In addition, pornography increases as a result of the cheapening of sex. Men and women are no longer considered full human beings with a mind and heart. No. They are treated as objects. Especially the women. Sex becomes an object. Women become an object. A commodity. Something to be used and thrown away.

I hope I am making some sense. I understand that it is a foreign concept to many people. I hope this helps .

[Sight Unseen]

Originally Posted by Aquaplant

But why? Isn't it up to the two people involved to decide their own commitment and such? For two willing individuals, sex is between them, and it's not really anyone else's concern. If they want it to be meaningless, it's their choice, as is treating it as a more emotional connection.

Exactly. I believe that for the Na'vi, casual sex is a choice. There are some that have sex just for pleasure, and others pursuing a more long term relationship. I don't see a problem with casual sex, especially among enlightened people, as long as its clear exactly what it means to each person, they both want each other for a night, and understand one another as a person.

However, I would think that tsahaylu is reserved for your true love, and once that has happened, you wouldn't want sex with anyone else anyway, because that person you are mated to becomes part of you. Having a deep understanding with someone, becoming one with someone, you don't need anyone else. That's the inherent beauty of tsahaylu. Intimacy to the point of becoming one, nothing needs explaining, no fights, grudges, distrust. Just beautiful, complete understanding, happiness, and love for everything partner is, mentally and physically.

Originally Posted by Woodsprite

I guess mating and tsahaylu are both inherent to each other. When the couple is mated, they don't necessarily have sex. When they do, however, they probably make tsahaylu again simultaneously with the sex. Think about it: two na'vi knowing exactly what the other one wants while copulating at the same time? It's basically twice the awesome.
That's my take.

Twice as awesome indeed. Wouldn't that be great?

[Apollo]

You have intimacy, and than you have sex. Intimacy is the most powerful emotion on this earth, it's way up there! And sex is the only thing to end it successfully. I would think some flirty discussions, teasing, and adult play would satisfy their needs. Of course they might have sex to make sure it ends on a comfortable note, there is always a way of not getting pregnancy. They don't have a laid-back lifestyle, so pulling out at the tip of the orgasm is possible; it takes discipline but the Na'vi have plenty of that. Hope that gave some insights.

[josie20]

Repunzel77, I agree with what you say. I think the same as you on this issue.

[Woodsprite]

Originally Posted by josie20

Repunzel77, I agree with what you say. I think the same as you on this issue.

Seconded.

[Stanley_9875]

Rulunzle I could.not have said it better myself... Sex is such a beautiful gift that in today's society it's just a quick pastime. It always makes memsad to
see people take it out of contexts like that... To me sex is an extremely passionate thing (i have not experienced it yet but I have thought about the subject... I think we all have lol) but it's so deep, it's our connection to the others soul.

[Aquaplant]

Originally Posted by rapunzel77

You raise some good questions. I know that many people, especially in today's society look at certain religious prohibitions on pre-marital sex as being backward and silly. There are good reasons for it though. Sex creates a VERY strong emotional/physical/spiritual bond between the man and woman. Its very intimate and special. Sure, it is basic in its physical aspects ie. the biological need, the means of reproduction, etc. However, the emotional attachment that it produces is so powerful that even after two people break up the effects of it still endures. That could also be a reason for the emotional breakdowns, depression, etc that gets associated with a terrible break up.

Think about it. It is during sex that the people are at their most vulnerable. There is NOTHING hidden. There can't be. They are saying with their bodies,"I am totally and completely yours and you are completely mine." Nothing hidden. It is the ultimate expression of love. Because it is so intimate, I would think that the person would want to express their love in a sexual way with only one person, their lifemate which in most societies that is encompassed in a marriage.

Sadly, sex has been made a recreation, a pastime. It has been treated as nothing more than just a game, a thing to do. Get a quick pleasure and that is it. No love. No commitment. No sharing of intimacy. This is how it is treated in most movies, advertisements, music, etc. People who get caught up in it are often not happy. I have seen women emotionally ruined by it. In addition, pornography increases as a result of the cheapening of sex. Men and women are no longer considered full human beings with a mind and heart. No. They are treated as objects. Especially the women. Sex becomes an object. Women become an object. A commodity. Something to be used and thrown away.

I hope I am making some sense. I understand that it is a foreign concept to many people. I hope this helps .

I understand just fine, and it's not that much of a foreign concept to me, although I have no personal experience on the subject, but that has never stopped me from being an armchair philosopher before.

But this issue is somewhat controversial to me, since I usually at least try to be a person of reason. On the other hand my other self is somewhat of a hopeless romantic, and therein lies the controversy, because there's nothing really romantic about reality, as we discussed before in the religious subject about the use of contraception.

Men and women treat sex differently because of our genetic drive. Men are programmed to have sex as much as possible, because for us, it's cheap. And thus for maximizing the chances of our genes living on in the next generation, we'd have to mate with as many females as possible. For women sex is more of an investment, and they can only do it once in terms of what genes tell them to do. This is what I meant when I said there's nothing romantic about reality. We are nothing more than slaves to our primordial needs, and that is never going to change no matter how much rules we put to try and restrain ourselves.

I'm getting all unstable again, since this is always an argument between the cynic and the romantic, and like I said, reality belongs to the cynic. Suffice to say that I understand the things you are advocating for and against, but sadly things are the way they are for a reason. I'd feel like a hypocrite trying to argue this matter one way or another, because of my "split personality". In the end however, much to my dismay, reality is the only thing that matters.

Once again I intended to write more, but this is all I can output for now.

[Muiä]

Aquaplant, I totally agree with what you are saying. Though there is one thing that is different for us and that is we are sentient and we have cultures, traditions and many other things other animals in the same "survival of the fittest" game do not have. Of course it is paramount that we spread our genes to the next generation, but to say it is simply that for humans is too black and white. The love and emotions we feel and the traditions and values we hold have evolutionary benefit otherwise we wouldn't have them now! We hold the sentience to make the decisions ourselves, so we can choose to have casual sex for the fun of it (and use protection to avoid any accidents which isn't the aim of casual sex) or we can just have sex for creating life, or the many other options such as to enjoy sex with a partner you love, thus enhancing your feelings and relationship and in evolutionary terms strengthening the bond you have so if you happened to become pregnant, you would be stronger and hopefully both bring up the child in a happier environment.

[aoitennyo]

I agree with what rapunzel said. Also, there actually is a chemical released in the human brain at orgasm called oxytocin. "Many studies have already shown a correlation of oxytocin with social bonding, increases in trust, and decreases in fear. One study confirmed that there was a positive correlation between oxytocin plasma levels and an anxiety scale measuring the adult romantic attachment" it also functions in "social recognition, pair bonding, anxiety, trust, love, and maternal behaviors" --Wikipedia. It is the same chemical released in a woman's body when gives birth and when she is nursing to bond her infant. With this information, one could argue that sex is biologically meant to be an emotionally bonding experience between mates rather than purely recreational.

Edit: Just because someone lives in a culture where nudity is widespread is nude does not mean they are more sexual (I wonder what they would have thought about Jake staring at all the bare breasts, lol). Many indigenous cultures who wear zero clothing are actually very conservative when it comes to sex (like some of the indigenous peoples in New Guinea or the Yanomamo tribes in the Amazon). I personally believe that sex is a sacred, precious act, and not just because of moral/religious reasons (and I don't necessarily mean main-stream Christian ). Also, the fact that they kept the "mated for life" line in there without showing Jake and Neytiri performing tsaheylu makes the audience assume that them having sex was what bonded them together for the rest of their lives.

Second Edit: I wonder how many people here are actually talking from experience (meant to be purely rhetorical)