Tsahaylu, reproduction, sex and pleasure

[Muiä]

aoitennyo, I definitely believe that peoples personal experiences will shape what people say somewhat in regards of this topic. I like to think I'm rational and realistic but also an idealist with my head in the clouds at times. So I look at the evolutionary aspects but also the social/romantic aspects. Such conflicting thoughts!

[aoitennyo]

Oh definitely. It is impossible for something you think not to be related to your experiences, since you are basically a mix of natural inclinations and personal experience (there was more smart-sounding stuff that was going to go there but I'm tired so it kind of... melted ). I know what you mean by being a rational but romantic person. For an example, I see Avatar and while a part of me (call it the "artist") is just like "WOAH! Pretty!!! *absolutely in love*" another part of me (call it the "scientist") wants to know what the hell is going on in my brain that's making me go bananas.

[Fkeu'itan]

Hmm... I like to think at it's base factor it's a primal urge, but because of the way we are - because of our minds and souls - it's also so much more than that. I will agree with what Rapunzel said. She put it in a way far better than I could.

As for stripping it down to esentially what it is, you could say the same thing about many, many different things.

Why do we enjoy eating different foods? At the end of the day, all it is is supplements and nutrition for the body, so why not just find one food (or a combination of foods) that gives us all the body needs and do nothing but eat that? We'd be getting everything we need after all...

[Aquaplant]

The ancient Greek philosopher Parmenides said that if we are to obtain reliable information about the world, we must use our reason instead of our senses, because our senses are so limited and can deceive us.

I'd say it's always a combination of both, but the ratio may vary case specifically. As I stated before, I have no personal experience on the subject, so I must rely on my ability to think rationally.

[rapunzel77]

Whew, I'm glad for the responses to my post. I wasn't sure how many would take it . Anyway, personal experience does matter a great deal in this area and its true that the hormone oxytocin does play a significant role in the bonding process. My post was based in part on personal experience. Sadly, I know that not everyone has good experiences with relationships, sex, etc. As a result, many emotional problems can ensue.

As for as your last post Aquaplant, I couldn't agree more. It is a combination of both. We must use our reason and our senses. We are complex creatures. We don't just eat to nourish ourselves. We eat to enjoy and to socialize. Due to our social nature we bond around basic human needs: food, drink, etc.

When it comes to sex, men and women bond together on a very high and intimate level. It reaffirms love, trust, and commitment.

This is also why we are different from our fellow animal creatures. They live a different form of existence. They lack reason. They have some emotion as well but probably not to the degree of complexity that humans have. This is adds to our uniqueness. So it is with sex. For the animals, its the urge to reproduce. They know when that season is and they reach that goal. Some die in the process or soon afterward. There isn't any emotion involved or not very much. Granted, there are rituals that involve male preening and wooing. I'm thinking of the lengths that male birds go to to grab the attention of a willing female.

However, it usually lasts for the season. There are a few that take life mates but most animals do not. For humans, it take a man and a woman to raise children. Granted, it can be done with one but the ideal is for a man and a woman. This is one of the reasons why marriages are made. The children need the balance of the masculine and feminine to grow. In addition, it promotes stability.

These are a few of the reasons besides the ones I mentioned in my last post for why we are different from animals and also probably why the Na'vi have a similar understanding of relationships and family. Granted, in their tribes, it would seem that the whole tribe is responsible for raising the children. This is also the case in some societies in Africa, South America, etc. In a sense, tightly knit neighborhoods would help in the same way decades ago. I know that that is virtually impossible now in our highly mobile and in some sense isolated society. This is also why forging strong bonds are so important.

[Rainbowhawk1993]

Originally Posted by Stanley_9875

I agree... also to just deeply think about these words... the ultimate intimacy... how incredible. Just the words gives me chills as I try to imagine the deepest connection the one has for the other. They each want each other, and when they can truly feel each others deepest feelings for each other, it makes them love each other even more. How incredible.

That's me as well, the deep emotion created when the na'vi couple are embrasing eachother. Makes me feel very emotional almost to the point of depression. I could say many things but I Just can't find the words to discribe it.

[Aquaplant]

I still fail to see the reason why sex should be considered as somehow sacred. And to make things a bit simpler, I'm going to exclude the reproductive side out of this. It still has the problem between the casual sex between unknown partners, but to keep it even simpler, I'm not going there either.(I'm lazy, I know that)

So we take the classic scenario with two lovers, who are unsure about their future plans and such. They spend time together, enjoying each others company, but are not yet having sex. So what kind of magic border would that be, when having sex is just another step in showing how much they care about one another? Does it matter that they might not live the rest of their lives together, but for the time being when they have one another, why should they hold back?

And I'm not going to accept the argument, that breaking up after having sex is hard, because I'd think it would be almost just as hard when relatively long term relationship comes to an abrupt end.

I know emotional things are quite hard to tackle with rational thinking, but that doesn't mean they can't be. And once again referencing another Greek philosopher, Socrates, who said that the most important tool in search for knowledge is talking with many different individuals, and what better place than here?

[Human No More]

Originally Posted by Sight Unseen

Exactly. I believe that for the Na'vi, casual sex is a choice. There are some that have sex just for pleasure, and others pursuing a more long term relationship. I don't see a problem with casual sex, especially among enlightened people, as long as its clear exactly what it means to each person, they both want each other for a night, and understand one another as a person.

Originally Posted by Aquaplant

I still fail to see the reason why sex should be considered as somehow sacred. And to make things a bit simpler, I'm going to exclude the reproductive side out of this. It still has the problem between the casual sex between unknown partners, but to keep it even simpler, I'm not going there either.(I'm lazy, I know that)

I agree. It's a basic biological instinct, and we are rewarded for following it. If both people understand that it's nothing more, then I don't see the problem so much there.

As I said before though, then yeah, tsahaylu would only be becoming one with the person who you do truly deeply love and want to be with for life.

Originally Posted by rapunzel77

You raise some good questions. I know that many people, especially in today's society look at certain religious prohibitions on pre-marital sex as being backward and silly. There are good reasons for it though. Sex creates a VERY strong emotional/physical/spiritual bond between the man and woman.

Depends. I've had a girlfriend before, she really wasn't the right person for me, but I never gained any kind of bond. I mean, we both knew it was nothing really serious, but that didn't stop enjoyment at the time.

Think about it. It is during sex that the people are at their most vulnerable. There is NOTHING hidden. There can't be. They are saying with their bodies,"I am totally and completely yours and you are completely mine." Nothing hidden. It is the ultimate expression of love. Because it is so intimate, I would think that the person would want to express their love in a sexual way with only one person, their lifemate which in most societies that is encompassed in a marriage.

I don't agree. Personally, I don't really even believe in marriage, it's a religious thing. If two people truly love each other, they don't need a piece of paper to say so. If they want to do it, fine, but they shouldn't have to.
Sex can be had without any further expectations or commitment, as long as both understand that. I'm not talking about between two completely random people, but between two people who there may be something, even if they aren't the ones who will end up being together for their lives.

[Sight Unseen]

Originally Posted by Aquaplant

I still fail to see the reason why sex should be considered as somehow sacred.
-snip-
Does it matter that they might not live the rest of their lives together, but for the time being when they have one another, why should they hold back?

I believe that sex wouldn't/shouldn't be a problem. Holding back would probably just make it more awkward when the time comes, and further, if they wanted sex and they were too shy to say it, this would put a sort of barrier in their relationship. If I ever get a girlfriend, I hope she shares yours and my views on the subject, and is upfront about it. Well said.

[rapunzel77]

Originally Posted by Aquaplant

I still fail to see the reason why sex should be considered as somehow sacred. And to make things a bit simpler, I'm going to exclude the reproductive side out of this. It still has the problem between the casual sex between unknown partners, but to keep it even simpler, I'm not going there either.(I'm lazy, I know that)

I tried to explain it the best way I could. I understand if you don't agree .

So we take the classic scenario with two lovers, who are unsure about their future plans and such. They spend time together, enjoying each others company, but are not yet having sex. So what kind of magic border would that be, when having sex is just another step in showing how much they care about one another? Does it matter that they might not live the rest of their lives together, but for the time being when they have one another, why should they hold back?

I guess it is difficult to explain. I understand what you are saying. This is why it is a controversial subject since everyone has strong opinions on it.

And I'm not going to accept the argument, that breaking up after having sex is hard, because I'd think it would be almost just as hard when relatively long term relationship comes to an abrupt end.

True. I understand your argument on this. I've seen it become more difficult in a break up or close to one with a couple of friends that I have had.

I know emotional things are quite hard to tackle with rational thinking, but that doesn't mean they can't be. And once again referencing another Greek philosopher, Socrates, who said that the most important tool in search for knowledge is talking with many different individuals, and what better place than here?

Exactly

Originally Posted by Human No More

I agree. It's a basic biological instinct, and we are rewarded for following it. If both people understand that it's nothing more, then I don't see the problem so much there.

I understand your argument but I don't totally agree with it because just like everything that we are, we are made up of spirit and body. What we do in the body also effects our spirit. I believe that this is also true with sex.

As I said before though, then yeah, tsahaylu would only be becoming one with the person who you do truly deeply love and want to be with for life.

Exactly. As humans, the closest that we can be to actually have tsahaylu is sex.

I don't agree. Personally, I don't really even believe in marriage, it's a religious thing. If two people truly love each other, they don't need a piece of paper to say so. If they want to do it, fine, but they shouldn't have to.
Sex can be had without any further expectations or commitment, as long as both understand that. I'm not talking about between two completely random people, but between two people who there may be something, even if they aren't the ones who will end up being together for their lives.

I know that we aren't going to agree on this . I understand your position though.

[Aquaplant]

Suffice to say that the only proper way this matter to be solved, would be a proper large scale scientific research. Since pretty much anything that we discuss here, are based on reason, emotion and experience, and as such are not always that reliable in the end.

What we are left here is our imperfect opinions, that we cannot prove or disprove either way, because we lack the necessary knowledge to make any sort of absolute judgment. Then again, science is always a changing field of information, that never stays quite the same. It's the same for humans as a species, that we are ever so slowly shaped by the flow of evolution.

I guess I'm saying that conversation is still always fruitful, even if we can never reach any sort of agreement. The purpose is just to increase awareness and to create more points of view, since we cannot hope to understand things with only our own initial perspective. We must always strive to be open-minded, because the more points of view we have, the more tools we have at our disposal.

But now I must go before I get angry again, because the little sanity I have left will be thrown out of the window once the anger takes control. I don't even know why I'm angry, it's just that mainly doors today have suffered some consequences due to my rage, and I don't want any of you to be exposed to that.