Government.

[Sacred Tsahaylu]

You want Cleggover in? He is rubbish. Although the Lib Dems did get rid of tuition fees in Scotland

[RizZy]

Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job.
Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

On the subject of UK government, the biggest problem I have with them all at the moment is they all seem to have blurred into the same thing, when I was younger & 1st got an idea on who these people where, there where clear differences between all the parties, now they all just seem the same, I really don't think it will make much difference to the country which of the main 2 have power, there all just grey nobodies in suits that value there own interests above anything else - take the expenses scandal as the best example of that.

Originally Posted by Fkeu'itan

It kind of irritates me that people always think "it's either labour or conservative", there are other parties out there y'know...

Thats why you're lucky. We only have two choices in the US. Unless you consider throwing your vote away to be a choice.

[Fkeu'itan]

On the subject of UK government, the biggest problem I have with them all at the moment is they all seem to have blurred into the same thing, when I was younger & 1st got an idea on who these people where, there where clear differences between all the parties, now they all just seem the same, I really don't think it will make much difference to the country which of the main 2 have power, there all just grey nobodies in suits that value there own interests above anything else - take the expenses scandal as the best example of that.

Agreed. Compare the labor party in the 1970s, to the 'new' labour we have now. Labour practically are the conservatives, the line between the two is so blurred, it's almost non existant. And again, agreed, they're all as bad as each other no matter which party they stand for.

You want Cleggover in? He is rubbish. Although the Lib Dems did get rid of tuition fees in Scotland

Yeah i'm not so sure about Clegg myself, but their policies are far better. I myself believe education should be a right, not a business...

Thats why you're lucky. We only have two choices in the US. Unless you consider throwing your vote away to be a choice.

I have to admit, I feel sorry for voters in the US. Over there, it seems to be a choice between right or far right, which is fine - provided you're right wing...

I think I would be classed as a 'wasted vote', there's no way the SLP would ever get into parliament but I do see the new generation in our country as generally left-wing. (Correct me if that is a false judgement.)

[fkeua vrrtep]

there is no real government , there's only a few people who control the states , politicians and presidents and partys are only there to give you the thought of having a choice , but you really don't , the media is used to control peoples minds , to force them into a way the people behind the curtain want it to .

Or when was the last time you had a choice , when did your oppinion and your choice matter the last time ? Did your oppinion matter when the US Army invaded Iraq for oil and used a cheap excuse to make iraq become it's foe and take from them what they wanted ? Does that sound a little familiar to you ?

"When people are sitting on s*** that you want , then make them your enemy , then you justify in taking it"

I'm not trying to be offensive against the US , every nation on the planet has blood on it's hands which it's desperately trying to hide from it's people .

So what did your choice matter in the case of war ? The Iraq war wasn't wanted by the people of the US , still Bushs corrupted government attacked Iraq , because they wanted the oil , with the cheap excuse that there are "weapons of mass destruction".

I remember an interview of Bush in which he was like "Whoops , no weapons of massdestruction there" and he laughed , in the same moment he laughed at the thousands of dead iraqis he bombed to death , he laughed at the dead american soldiers and their widows who will never see their husbands again , he laughed at the children whose fathers and mothers were killed in that war of profit , and in the end he laughed at his people too for not stopping him .

So just think about once again how much YOUR oppinion is desired/counts .

They don't want you to be smart , they want you to stay ignorant and dumb , or why do you think 90% of the TV program is about how Paris Hiltons new style is and how Britney Spears is having trouble with managing her own life ?

They want you to be focused on senseless and unimportant stuff , they don't want you to think about what is going on in the world , the sheeps have to be entertained and that's what they do , they entertain you so you won't do anything against your slavery .

Democracy , dictatorship , socialism , that's all just the same , it's names , and that's the only thing that is changing , NAMES , the people who control everything stay the same , confusion is just another tool they use , and the number of parties and ideologies is there to make you belive you had a choice , but you really don't .

Change , criticism and autarchy aren't desired , everyone who ever tried to tell people that they should use their own minds and that they are free , has been taken out throughout the history of mankind , for example Martin L. King , who wanted to tell people that they are all the same , though he got killed , because the government wants you to stay in conflict with other people with different ethnic backgrounds to not let people gain power with putting aside their differences .

In the so called modern society of mankind you are permanently being numbed with unimportant and senseless things like materialism , most people are consumed by it and accept it as their deity and let vanity and corruption come over them just like the government wants it to be , with that you sell your freedom for a quantum of "safety" which is not even 100% guaranteed , and what is the most important thing , you sell your humaneness for "profit" and "safety" , everyone who does that is merely a slave without a free will , and what is a human without his or her free will ?

But what is profit, what is wealth ? Another thing that is taught you through Avatar , "The wealth of this world isn't in the ground , it is all around us" , materialism is false , it is an illusion that is brought to your mind to make you forget about the real important things .

Governments don't work for the people , or why are their actions mostly hidden under a cloak of fog , why do they hide their actions from us if they claim to be our guardians and helpers ? Why do they keep telling lies and half-truths ?

In my oppinion , mankind will never be free as long as it's controlled by governments , mankind will only find it's peace and freedom when it finally is given the chance to define it's fate by itself .

[ZenitYerkes]

Now fkeua has raised a very important question: Do we need the government?

He's clearly for the no, using a proved along history argument: people in the power usually takes advantage of their situation and use the work of their subordinates to satisfy their wishes.

However, I have to say that, although I'm completely against the abuses of authority, we need governments.

Why? Anarchy (this is, no government) leads to a "Welcome to the jungle" situation. Those who have a natural advantage (the strongest or those who have a big popular support) will take over the weakest. One of the things governments do well is to protect the weak against the powerful by nature, giving each what they deserve (this is what we call justice).

But this justice can be easily manipulated by the power, so they can say that it is fair to kill people and damn the murdered by just approving a law. They rule the system, and they can do whatever they want with them; even in democracy (they won't be doing referendums constantly to keep their policy going, you just voted them and they can do almost whatever they want for the next 4 years)

Our governments are now unable to be understood if you haven't studied 9 years of your life a pile of books related to Law; there is way too much bureaucracy and (unnecessary) processes that makes it critique-proof and impossible to improve by the common people. We need specialists (aka politicians) to manage our so complicated lives; when life is actually not that difficult.

Why do governments don't work nowadays? Because what we did is to democratize the previous system; based on the power over a territory, and therefore its inhabitants. Politics don't care actually about the people, they care about the country.

In summary, politics sucks hard; but we need it if we don't want to end up summed in the chaos.

That's why I say that the only necessary government is the fair one.

EDIT: God I need to focus myself on a single point; every paragraph is talking about a different topic.

[fkeua vrrtep]

Originally Posted by ZenitYerkes

Now fkeua has raised a very important question: Do we need the government?

She's clearly for the no..

She , is actually a dude

Besides there is no fair government , since governments ALWAYS , and that's without exception , want to gain power and "wealth" .

And I'd like to clear things up referring to Anarchy/Chaos , Anarchy (In my oppinion) is the only way in how to gain full freedom and independence , there is no government or group of people who can force you into doing anything you don't want to , you define your own fate .

The term anarchy has been perverted throughout mankinds history because politicians saw the danger that came from it's potential , which would grant every man and woman the right of freedom , thus they created democracy to keep people chained to their systems , and keep them working to maintain the machinery they built up , which is still kept alive by each of us .

Plus it doesn't have to be that if Anarchy would come to existance , that people suddenly would start murdering and raping each other , why should they take from others , if everyone has gained the ability to live autarkic again and produce everything they need by themselves .

As far as I can say for myself , I'd rather live in a world of Anarchy , and be a free man in deciding my own fate and living my life the way I want to , than living in a "society" that forces me to do things I don't like , or be a number under the masses who is permanently being brainwashed by it's government and being exploited by it .

People tell you that Anarchy is "dangerous" , because they have been brainwashed into thinking like that , in the end we have come to existance through Anarchy , and guess what , we are still here , we just became slaves on our way at some point and got subjugated by few men who "rule" this planet and sold our freedom in exchange for a little security .

[ZenitYerkes]

Hey fkeua, with all that Neytiri stuff on your profile I thought you were a dudette.

Anyway, people who say that Anarchy will bring the world to the state it should be are mostly people who can think by themselves. I had my Anarchic phase too, huh; but eventually realized that if someday that system is imposed it would be uncontrollable.

Why? Because of these brainwashed people, who cannot think as well as you do (like for example the ganstas). See, you've got no punishment for your actions, what would you do if what you really want is to kill that mother****er? Or **** his sister? Hey, nobody's going to stop you! Go do it! Imagine you're a countryman and have your piece of land. Why would you let the rest of the world take advantage of your harvest? Have your part, let the people starve.

The reason why anarchy, communism and capitalism, every single goddamned theory didn't work, doesn't work and will not work is because they most of the times forget to include the human factor and focus on the utopia. Because we're free to choose between the easy and the correct, very few people are to choose the second one. Put no restrictions, and they will go directly to the easy way: instead of counting up to ten when you're angry with your neighbor you kick her head. No legal consequences.

[rapunzel77]

Fkeua, I agree with most of what you are saying. We have had several discussions on this. However, I do think that government has a role to play named defense of the nation from enemies foreign and domestic. They do have the responsibility for that and to maintain order. As for as commerce, they should have a role in that too but it should be limited.

As to what you said Shatnerpossum about the 2 party system in the US, you bring up an important issue. Why should we only have two? I as a voter feel that I have NO choice anymore. There is no one to choose from. They are all the same. They rattle off promises to get votes and then they do what they want once they get elected. It gets very tiresome. I am tired of the two party system. I don't like either one. People are more complex and can't be regulated to democrat or republican, liberal or conservative. I have a mixture of political beliefs that don't fit in either party. I used to believe that voting 3rd party would be wasting my vote but I don't think so anymore. I am tired of the status quo.

[fkeua vrrtep]

Originally Posted by ZenitYerkes

Hey fkeua, with all that Neytiri stuff on your profile I thought you were a dudette.

Anyway, people who say that Anarchy will bring the world to the state it should be are mostly people who can think by themselves. I had my Anarchic phase too, huh; but eventually realized that if someday that system is imposed it would be uncontrollable.

Why? Because of these brainwashed people, who cannot think as well as you do (like for example the ganstas). See, you've got no punishment for your actions, what would you do if what you really want is to kill that mother****er? Or **** his sister? Hey, nobody's going to stop you! Go do it! Imagine you're a countryman and have your piece of land. Why would you let the rest of the world take advantage of your harvest? Have your part, let the people starve.

The reason why anarchy, communism and capitalism, every single goddamned theory didn't work, doesn't work and will not work is because they most of the times forget to include the human factor and focus on the utopia. Because we're free to choose between the easy and the correct, very few people are to choose the second one. Put no restrictions, and they will go directly to the easy way: instead of counting up to ten when you're angry with your neighbor you kick her head. No legal consequences.

Well the reason why people want to kill and rape each other is because people have been manipulated by their so called leaders into being greedy , greed is the killer Nr.1 in our world , so if you think like that , the chances of Anarchy being the right system , if you consider that the most of the people can't think out of the box , would likely fail .

But what would you think of as the only right system , if every single one has proved itself to be the wrong one ?

In my oppinion , Anarchy is the best choice if it comes to freedom and self-determination .

Democracy is actually correct , if they would finally take it into practice and stop fooling people with having a chance , actually there should be a voting on every more or less important decision the country or the state has to take , and everyone has the right to vote , the vote would also be 100% valid and undoubtable , but then there's the question again , how can you be sure that your vote is transferred correctly ? Votes can be manipulated .

[ZenitYerkes]

Originally Posted by fkeua vrrtep

Well the reason why people want to kill and rape each other is because people have been manipulated by their so called leaders into being greedy , greed is the killer Nr.1 in our world , so if you think like that , the chances of Anarchy being the right system , if you consider that the most of the people can't think out of the box , would likely fail .

But what would you think of as the only right system , if every single one has proved itself to be the wrong one ?

In my oppinion , Anarchy is the best choice if it comes to freedom and self-determination .

Democracy is actually correct , if they would finally take it into practice and stop fooling people with having a chance , actually there should be a voting on every more or less important decision the country or the state has to take , and everyone has the right to vote , the vote would also be 100% valid and undoubtable , but then there's the question again , how can you be sure that your vote is transferred correctly ? Votes can be manipulated .

It's not that "the greedy top bosses have corrupted mankind". No, we're like that; not bad or good at all, we've got both in our nature; but depending on our identity and education we develop certain aspects to one or other side. Anyway, the bad is already done and if you liked to impose Anarchy in the world and see that it is good in practice you'd have to change the mentality of the whole world. Yes, I'd also love and wish to see every single person being completely free, but we aren't, because we're bad people who like to **** the other's stuff and dominate (curiously, Christianity said this before: sinners shall not be free).

No, I don't believe in the current democratic system. In Spain is just like the on the US but the wasted votes at least kinda count. My father works on the Deputy Congress (aka the Spanish Parliament), and says that what actually happens is that on the election day you might lose or win. If you lose it's all about being on the second place and show the people that your party is better than the winner one, show its defects and eventually win the elections again.

Quoting Thomas Jefferson: "If we say certain people can't take control even over themselves, should we let a single person rule all over the population of a country?" Our governors should be sublime in the moral aspect and clearly choose the common good before their own interests; however they don't.

And why we let them do it? Because we don't know them until they get in power. We vote unknown people, or have you ever met personally Obama or Brown?

[rapunzel77]

Originally Posted by ZenitYerkes

No, I don't believe in the current democratic system. In Spain is just like the on the US but the wasted votes at least kinda count. My father works on the Deputy Congress (aka the Spanish Parliament), and says that what actually happens is that on the election day you might lose or win. If you lose it's all about being on the second place and show the people that your party is better than the winner one, show its defects and eventually win the elections again.

Wow, that sounds like what is going on here in the US. The republicans are kicked out of office and the democrats get in. Each party vilifies the other. NOT one of them actually brings out any solutions. All they do is attack the other person without actually hearing their views. In fact, that is a problem with most of political discourse today. The atmosphere is so toxic. Everyone bickers and no one offers any solution. There also doesn't seem to be any respect. Its sickening. I'm tired of the whole system.

And why we let them do it? Because we don't know them until they get in power. We vote unknown people, or have you ever met personally Obama or Brown?

Exactly right. We don't know any of these people. They just say what everyone wants to hear and then when they get into office, they do only want they want. They are greedy for power and prestige. That is what it comes down to. That seems to be the only reason they are in office.

[fkeua vrrtep]

Originally Posted by ZenitYerkes

It's not that "the greedy top bosses have corrupted mankind". No, we're like that; not bad or good at all, we've got both in our nature; but depending on our identity and education we develop certain aspects to one or other side. Anyway, the bad is already done and if you liked to impose Anarchy in the world and see that it is good in practice you'd have to change the mentality of the whole world. Yes, I'd also love and wish to see every single person being completely free, but we aren't, because we're bad people who like to **** the other's stuff and dominate (curiously, Christianity said this before: sinners shall not be free).

No, I don't believe in the current democratic system. In Spain is just like the on the US but the wasted votes at least kinda count. My father works on the Deputy Congress (aka the Spanish Parliament), and says that what actually happens is that on the election day you might lose or win. If you lose it's all about being on the second place and show the people that your party is better than the winner one, show its defects and eventually win the elections again.

Quoting Thomas Jefferson: "If we say certain people can't take control even over themselves, should we let a single person rule all over the population of a country?" Our governors should be sublime in the moral aspect and clearly choose the common good before their own interests; however they don't.

And why we let them do it? Because we don't know them until they get in power. We vote unknown people, or have you ever met personally Obama or Brown?

that wasn't what I wanted to say , it's right , man has always been quite evil in his nature , but the "bosses" who control this world actually made it worse , they've paved the way for evilness to spread , for greed , vanity and corruption and the list goes on .

And you are right , people are lazy , they want others to do the thinking for them , thus they vote for a "president" who rules their country , it's all about responsibility , people hate it , they want to be a number under the masses and to be able to blame it on a party or a president if anything goes wrong , they don't want to be free because they can't take responsibility and it's effects , and so they let others rule over them , just for the privilidge of moaning ,complaining and blaming they sell their freedom .

[ZenitYerkes]

Can we provide a fair alternative to past and current governments?

[rapunzel77]

Originally Posted by ZenitYerkes

Can we provide a fair alternative to past and current governments?

OOHH, very good and very important question. I don't know the answer to be honest. I don't believe we will ever have a completely fair system of government. That is probably unobtainable (no pun intended ). I like the idea of localism though. Dividing it up into smaller groups. Again, one looks at Ancient Rome. The empire got to large. It had to be divided. It became ungovernable. I certainly don't think we need more centralized government. That is scary and I know there is some people out there that think there needs to be a super centralized government for the world, etc. UGH. That would be awful.

What do you think? Is there a way for their to be localism now? Small communities getting together, working the land, growing their own crops, etc. It isn't just government that needs decentralizing. Corporations also need to be.