The Change - What Do -You- Want?

[fkeua vrrtep]

Originally Posted by ZenitYerkes

fkeua vrrtep: THIS society may not be the best or the fairest, but society in general terms is needed as long as we are social beings. Just like the ants need to live in the nest, we need our cities and villages. And as long as we don't have a better alternative, we need this.

I agree to a certain point , afterall we are social beings who need social contacts , at least most of us , more or less .

Still the certain state of the society we have had throughout the last couple of houndred years was forged to oppress the large numbers of people and to exploit them for the good of only a few which is an undeniable fact , this society has forced us into bad mindsets , into endless numbers of wars and it has departed people more than it does bring them together .

In my oppinion , this society , at least what it claims to be needs a drastic reworking or people will just keep taking the s*** they are being served .

[fkeua vrrtep]

[QUOTE=rasomaso;77441]Well that's rather uncommon, or at least around here. I don't know anyone who was forced into studying certain subject by parents. If that's the case, it means the parents are stupid and have no consideration of their child's interests, nothing wrong with society in general. Most people study what they are interested in, but it's true that some of them chose it because they wanted more money, but that's their choice, problem is just that some people think of being rich too much, money isn't everything... Those are individual cases.

Not really, my mom always told me it's more important to have a job you enjoy and I believe that's what every responsible parent should tell their children. Of course you can't do your hobby as your job if it makes you starve because you suck at it lol, but there has to be balance. As for the consumerism and materialism, I agree with you, but I mentioned that in my post.

Quite difficult to find a job you enjoy these days ,at least in the place where I live.

Not true. The road you are driving on, it was built by people you know, you didn't give them anything in return for building it too. Or maybe the scientists or teachers, they are all paid from the taxes you pay. It's a system, where you give and receive, you just gotta see that you are actually receiving, not just taking it as granted.

I'm certainly aware that the roads I'm driving on are at least partly made with the money of the people who payed taxes for it , but the money that is taken as taxes is only spent to make it become useful for the people who payed them , the money is widely spent on other things such as the military etc. , things I don't want my money to go for , infact I think it's quite obvious that the taxes are not used to improve the standard of living of the people who payed them , it is mostly put into the economy , military and used to stabilize the power of the country and it's influence in the world if we refer to western states .

Yeah the corporations thing is always bad, I actually wanted to say "important people" of some sort instead of politics. The more people company has, it's more likely to act this way. If you think about it, politics and big corporations are not very different, they are mostly about profit. The difference is that politics shouldn't be ones for profit (hence the responsibility I mentioned) and people in charge of big companies shouldn't make profit at the expense of morality (hence the greed comment).

Yeah would be good but in the end it's just wishful thinking and the way our world works , there's no states , no countries there's just corporations , money and oil.

Define radical, what exactly is supposed to be the outcome? I'm not a statistic, so I don't know how many people are blinded by consumerism, but I'm not. I can see it and I don't think I know anyone who doesn't. But that's what I mention before isn't it?

The outcome is supposed to be a free society of people who decide by their own what they think is good for each other , no corrupt governments with politicians who keep promising but do the opposite of what they actually promised when they got selected .

My personal favorite would be anarchy mixed with a little of democracy , real democracy not the joke that is presented you in the US or in europe , I'm sorry but the 2 party system of the US is just ridiculous , I think there are most likely more than only 2 oppinions on a task if there's almost 300 million people in your country and you claim to be a democratic state .

People should be totally free in the way they educate their people and they should be free on the decision what they want to do with their lifes , no manipulization , only experience knowledge received through your own .

Besides people should be made aware that they are the once who direct their lifes and not institutions who do the thinking for you , actually there shouldn't be no institutions which could intervene into your personal life and the way you want to live .

But all that is difficult to change because people have been dependent too long to this seemingly guiding thing that claimed to be helping but instead departed and literally forces people into something they would have never become .

Now you'd probably come up with how I would try to defend my people if they would be threatend by another state or group of people , well that's the point , we have gone too far , alot of people don't realize anymore that we are all the same ,human beings , people kill each other for the money in the others ones pocket , people lost the sense for life , instead they changed their nature against something evil that consumed the rest of what they were , I think people have come to the point where they are nothing more than machines controlled by what they were forced into becoming .

[stdout]

What I'd like society to become:

The Venus Project

[Woodsprite]

Fkeua, I think you're assuming too much about the so-called "society", and would go far to say that you might just be illustrating a picture similar (if not exactly) to your own experiences, and not the majority of people... ?

Society does not "dictate" anything. If you were in the society of Saudi Arabia, for example, it'd be a lot worse than what you describe. If you were in the Congo's society, you'd be living in s**t.

"Society" is a difficult word to define, because it isn't limited to a single-set population. The American society, for instance, does not tell me to sit in front of my television and eat junk food all day while I let my parents decide what school I attend. No. As a matter of fact, I chose my own schooling all my life, including which university I will attend this year.

No, society as a whole is indefinable. I sympathize with raso, in that I ask the same question: change what exactly? The world is a diverse, complex organism that evolves on its own. When it's ready, it will ultimately turn into something different, though none of us could possibly know what. From 4000 B.C. to 1 A.D., it was human development of philosophy/reason/religion. From then to the present it was technology. From now onward? We don't know.

So ask yourself, why should society change (however that may be) for the benefit of what I believe is right? That's being a bit arrogant, you know? What if everything you think you know is wrong? ...What if everything I think I know is wrong? We cannot judge or claim to discern what is currently happening as a force for the better or worse, since we are mere mortals with absolutely no intelligence concerning the spectacle of the universe.

Whatever "change" will happen, you can't say that "this must change to that" or "this must happen in order for...". Neither can I. Imagine the effects of what would happen with any mere idea we have. Society will change. It's always changing. But 2,000 years from now, who's to say we'll be looked back upon as "in the right"?

Better question: who's to say we'll be viewed later as "in the wrong"?

[fkeua vrrtep]

[QUOTE=Woodsprite;77473]

Fkeua, I think you're assuming too much about the so-called "society", and would go far to say that you might just be illustrating a picture similar (if not exactly) to your own experiences, and not the majority of people... ?

I refer to the reality of how our society works and always has worked , that doesn't have anything to do with "I think it might be like" , it's something you can see everyday , you don't need to be a genius to see that.

Society does not "dictate" anything. If you were in the society of Saudi Arabia, for example, it'd be a lot worse than what you describe. If you were in the Congo's society, you'd be living in s**t.

It's the same everywhere else on this planet , maybe not by the exact same means of physical violence , it's more about stress and pressure in the western countries , and illusions .

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free."

Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

why should society change (however that may be) for the benefit of what I believe is right?

I see , you like others to think for you what is right or wrong , one of the main flaws that humanity has is that nobody likes to take responsibility ,thus they let others decide and think instead of themselves .

What if everything you think you know is wrong?

It's not because it's logical and compared to the way people reign this machinery it works for and not against it's inhabitants.

And also because my thoughts and decisions don't base on profit ,greed and everything else that makes this place start rotting .

We cannot judge or claim to discern what is currently happening as a force for the better or worse, since we are mere mortals with absolutely no intelligence concerning the spectacle of the universe.

That's right , and I never claimed to be all knowing and wise , I just see what happens in front of me and on this planet , and I can tell that I don't like it , and it's not right , it's simply wrong .

Whatever "change" will happen, you can't say that "this must change to that" or "this must happen in order for...". Neither can I. Imagine the effects of what would happen with any mere idea we have. Society will change. It's always changing. But 2,000 years from now, who's to say we'll be looked back upon as "in the right"?

Better question: who's to say we'll be viewed later as "in the wrong"?

Of course I can say what is right or wrong , if not I'll just take things as they are , not question them and become just another silent consume-zombie with no idea about himself or the world he's living in because I exchanged my free mind and the ability to analyze what happens around me and also my freedom for a little safety ,and everyone who does exchange his freedom for safety is just a coward .

It's not about who will say in 2000 years who was right or wrong , because history will always be written by the winner , it's about seeing what is right or wrong , knowing what is right or wrong and to not just accept things the way they are or simply don't discuss it because you leave it to others .

Being right or wrong is a matter of facts , you can tell what is right or wrong by watching , and if someone can't see that something is going wrong with mankind he or she must be either blind or denying the facts that are obvious .

[rasomaso]

world is not black and white

[Woodsprite]

Well this is certainly one hell of a long post...

Originally Posted by fkeua vrrtep

I refer to the reality of how our society works and always has worked , that doesn't have anything to do with "I think it might be like" , it's something you can see everyday , you don't need to be a genius to see that.

If greed, suffering, and death is all you think that the world has become, I declare you *wrong*. Am I right? You don't think I'm right, you think you are right, and that you have nothing to stop you from claiming that what you believe is right is ultimately justified by what you observe.

...But if you judge based on what you observe, and all you observe is the negative, then you do not see. I mean that in all honesty.

Originally Posted by fkeua vrrtep

It's the same everywhere else on this planet , maybe not by the exact same means of physical violence , it's more about stress and pressure in the western countries , and illusions .

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free."

Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Depends how you define "free". Can you wake up, eat what you want, dress how you like, or even go quit your job if you felt like it? You couldn't do any of this spontaneity in Saudi Arabia. That's my point.

Originally Posted by fkeua vrrtep

I see , you like others to think for you what is right or wrong , one of the main flaws that humanity has is that nobody likes to take responsibility ,thus they let others decide and think instead of themselves .

Ok, right there you're making a baseless judgement against who I am, and what I may or may not think.

Stop.

We are not going to debate my mindset or ideas based on your knowledge of it, which isn't much. You go too far.

Originally Posted by fkeua vrrtep

It's not because it's logical and compared to the way people reign this machinery it works for and not against it's inhabitants.

And also because my thoughts and decisions don't base on profit ,greed and everything else that makes this place start rotting .

How do you know that basing your thoughts off a certain aspect you believe is correct to automatically make you "right"?

The people of Germany did the same thing when they started hating Jews, and they hated them because they genuinely thought they were an inferior race of humans.

Originally Posted by fkeua vrrtep

That's right , and I never claimed to be all knowing and wise...

...In effect to this subject, yes you did. You said,

Originally Posted by fkeua vrrtep

"I see... one of the main flaws that humanity has is that nobody likes to take responsibility... because my thoughts and decisions don't base on profit, greed and everything else that makes this place start rotting."

---------------------------------------------------

Originally Posted by fkeua vrrtep

...I just see what happens in front of me and on this planet , and I can tell that I don't like it , and it's not right , it's simply wrong .

You may believe that, but you don't know if it truly is for sure, unless... you're like me, and have faith. Not necessarily faith in the supernatural, but faith in your own ideas.

On a more philosophical, personal level, how can you trust your thoughts? Since you're an atheist, you obviously *know* that the mind is nothing but a series of complex chemicals working together to create various feelings and thoughts inside, such as empathy, depression, joy, anger, etc. But what if *evolution* got it wrong, and you're really just an example of nature's "error", as we all have to equally be? Or maybe not. Maybe nature got it right with say, Eltu, in that he aquired a more developed, more chemically-complex structure of neurons in his brain, so that according to natural law, his mindset is theoretically the "correct" one, with less error.

You could take this to the next level, that we're all just senseless beings walking around without a clue, that nature really screwed up when creating us, meaning that we're all, to the definition of what nature calls "good", evil.

Think about it.

Originally Posted by fkeua vrrtep

Of course I can say what is right or wrong , if not I'll just take things as they are , not question them and become just another silent consume-zombie with no idea about himself or the world he's living in because I exchanged my free mind and the ability to analyze what happens around me and also my freedom for a little safety ,and everyone who does exchange his freedom for safety is just a coward .

Now you're giving anecdotal evidence. Just because you may believe your mindset to be in the right because you have had personal experiences that might've "confirmed" your views, doesn't mean it's really true.

Where do I live? How nice are my neighbors? My parents? What have I been taught, generally, about courtesy, respect, diligence to undertake a project, etc.? What's my general life like?

You wouldn't know. I don't know you either, but from what I can tell, you've either had a worse life, or just took into news events too much that you believe bad news is really all that happens anymore. Of course, I really don't know why you think negatively about most things the world has to offer, but I have a big feeling that it has something to do with something personal, not just "what you see". Because it's obvious that others, just like all of us, are leading happy, full lives, and believe that they are right about the world.

I don't mean any offense by this, but the truth is, you don't know crap about how the world works if you think that everyone is bound by a single, rotating system that regulates and guides everyone who's trapped in the paradox of "life". Everyone who works, plays, loves, hates, lives, or dies has a life, and that life is not always the "truth" of your concept of a convoluted, greedy world that cares for nothing but itself. If you truly did "see", you'd know that many, many people aren't "trapped", but rather living their lives.

For all you really know, your brain might not be evolved far enough, and we're all the ones who see, and you're the one in the dark... if you want to take it to an evolutionary level, at least.

That last sentence was a joke.

Originally Posted by fkeua vrrtep

It's not about who will say in 2000 years who was right or wrong , because history will always be written by the winner , it's about seeing what is right or wrong , knowing what is right or wrong and to not just accept things the way they are or simply don't discuss it because you leave it to others .

If you want to discuss things, we can. But you're entering a whole new dimension with your claim that you "just know" that whatever interpretation you put on what you observe is correct. That's what I'm debating you on, not the fact that I also believe that humanity is a bit... off. However, I don't think society is "bad". The world is still a pretty awesome place... if you know where to look. But you're like a criminal who can't find the cops.

Originally Posted by fkeua vrrtep

Being right or wrong is a matter of facts , you can tell what is right or wrong by watching , and if someone can't see that something is going wrong with mankind he or she must be either blind or denying the facts that are obvious .

And how can you "tell"? If your brain is just a series of random chemicals, how would you know what's right or wrong? You can't know. No one can. I refer back to my example of the German people at the time of Hitler.

[fkeua vrrtep]

[QUOTE=Woodsprite;77516]Well this is certainly one hell of a long post...


[QUOTE=Woodsprite;77516]Well this is certainly one hell of a long post...

First of all I am german myself , and I guess I have to retell the story as it was , there were around 10% of the germans who called themselves followers of the NS-Party , you try to portrait it like it was EVERYONE , that's like saying just because some islamists are bombing a building , all people of the islam must be killers too , it's just stupid , besides jews are not a race , it's a religious group , and I hope you realized you tried to draw parallels between me and the Nazis .

But I guess it's just like I said , the winner always writes history .

If greed, suffering, and death is all you think that the world has become, I declare you *wrong*. Am I right? You don't think I'm right, you think you are right, and that you have nothing to stop you from claiming that what you believe is right is ultimately justified by what you observe.

Well , if you look back at the last 200 years that's pretty much the main thing mankind was busy with , killing ,invading ,torturing , murdering and exploiting , telling anything different would make you a coward too since it's a proven fact that we've been busy killing off each other since ages , tells alot about how mankind works doesn't it .

And it's not all it has become , technically it's a little different , now you can sit at home and watch the news reporter talking about how your countries troops did well in capturing oil plants and killing innocent people right after the ad for some new mainstream album .

It's not about me claiming myself always right , I just see things happening , reflecting the way things look and the way they are .

And of course what I do observe is right , would suck if my eyes would start fooling me .

...But if you judge based on what you observe, and all you observe is the negative, then you do not see. I mean that in all honesty.

And in all honesty , it's hard to pick out the tiny tiny good things that happen in this world between massacres and seeing how society stupidifies it's children , or how we keep cutting down endless woods around the equator to shape them into furniture when it was ment to ensure the proper gas exchange in our atmosphere .

Depends how you define "free". Can you wake up, eat what you want, dress how you like, or even go quit your job if you felt like it? You couldn't do any of this spontaneity in Saudi Arabia. That's my point.

You can but that doesn't make you free , because if you dress like you want , act like you want or do whatever you like to you will become nothing but a savage to people in the western society , simply because you don't fit into the stereotype anymore .

Family members and friends will turn against you mostly , simply because you want to be different and enjoy your freedom on how you live your life ,and of course because it's putten into a bad light to be autarc by the system everday .

Besides if you haven't noticed yet ,we are talking about western societies not about middle eastern ones , though I still got your point , but I don't think you got mine .

We are not going to debate my mindset or ideas based on your knowledge of it, which isn't much. You go too far.

Why shouldn't we discuss your mindset , now you are claiming yourself to be all-wise and all-knowing , sounds a little hipocritical to me .

Though I think it's stupid to not discuss someones mindset or your own with someone else , it's always good to see other perspectives and draw your conclusions out of a comparisment with yours , something else would be highly arrogant , something you called me somewhere in your text , and you've kinda been it yourself .

And how can you question my knowledge , we are on the internet fella,once again you are being arrogant yourself .

How do you know that basing your thoughts off a certain aspect you believe is correct to automatically make you "right"?

Simply because they are based on facts and observations or also logic conclusions .

...In effect to this subject, yes you did. You said,

The conclusion I drew was obvious , doesn't have anything to do with being cocky ,all wise or all knowing , it's an obvious fact that people like to be anonymous amongst the masses , they give their freedom to a few and let them decide on how to procede with humanity , and if something goes wrong , they have someone else to blame at every possible time and give away responsibility .

You may believe that, but you don't know if it truly is for sure, unless... you're like me, and have faith. Not necessarily faith in the supernatural, but faith in your own ideas.

I guess I am pretty to that I can rely on historical proven facts and on my sane mind and senses .

On a more philosophical, personal level, how can you trust your thoughts? Since you're an atheist, you obviously *know* that the mind is nothing but a series of complex chemicals working together to create various feelings and thoughts inside, such as empathy, depression, joy, anger, etc. But what if *evolution* got it wrong, and you're really just an example of nature's "error", as we all have to equally be? Or maybe not. Maybe nature got it right with say, Eltu, in that he aquired a more developed, more chemically-complex structure of neurons in his brain, so that according to natural law, his mindset is theoretically the "correct" one, with less error.

Your examples don't make any sense , there is nothing such as an error in nature , everything nature does is experimenting , and we both belong to the same experiment .

Besides I don't trust my thoughts , I trust facts and observations which can't be faked unless I'm on LSD , shrooms or else what.

And even if that happened what you described with Eltu's brain , that still doesn't legitimate himself to be the human-supercomputer , all-knowing and all-wise , you kind of refuted yourself there.

You could take this to the next level, that we're all just senseless beings walking around without a clue, that nature really screwed up when creating us, meaning that we're all, to the definition of what nature calls "good", evil.

You are right , in a way it's senseless what we are doing , as far as I know we are the first species to face the surface of this planet that has been trying to exploit and kill off each other since man crawled out of the slime , and nature kind of really screwed something up with us .

In my oppinion there is no good nor evil , it's only choices that makes us what we are , there's things that are viewed evil in one and good in a different culture , thus there is no good or evil , only decisions and how we look at them , there is no consequences , only choices .

Now you're giving anecdotal evidence. Just because you may believe your mindset to be in the right because you have had personal experiences that might've "confirmed" your views, doesn't mean it's really true.

Once again , my mindset and experiences base on true facts , I don't just come up with stuff just like that , and if I would think of myself as all-knowing and all-wise I wouldn't be here to discuss things .

You wouldn't know. I don't know you either, but from what I can tell, you've either had a worse life, or just took into news events too much that you believe bad news is really all that happens anymore. Of course, I really don't know why you think negatively about most things the world has to offer, but I have a big feeling that it has something to do with something personal, not just "what you see". Because it's obvious that others, just like all of us, are leading happy, full lives, and believe that they are right about the world.

Now you are being a hipocrit again , you are attacking me personally , though you told me to "STOP" before when I questioned or wanted to discuss your mindset , and unlike you said my life has been a normal one until now , I think of my mindset as a mirror of the world I live in and it reflects nothing but things that really happened , and no that's not ment arrogant or however you wan't to call it .

And so what , is it wrong to think negatively if something is negative ? Your point doesn't make any sense to me .

Of course alot of people are leading happy lifes , because they love the artificial world they've been thrown into and given all those illusions of wealth or freedom which they will never possess as long as they are living in their bubbles .

[fkeua vrrtep]

[QUOTE=Woodsprite;77516]Well this is certainly one hell of a long post...

I don't mean any offense by this, but the truth is, you don't know crap about how the world works if you think that everyone is bound by a single, rotating system that regulates and guides everyone who's trapped in the paradox of "life". Everyone who works, plays, loves, hates, lives, or dies has a life, and that life is not always the "truth" of your concept of a convoluted, greedy world that cares for nothing but itself. If you truly did "see", you'd know that many, many people aren't "trapped", but rather living their lives.

Well mate , if you believe that you are not living in a controlled state or system you don't know crap either , because it's been that way forever , it's just less obvious or you just don't like to think about it , I don't know .

If you want to discuss things, we can. But you're entering a whole new dimension with your claim that you "just know"

Now you claim that you just know everything by yourself , we've only been talking about 1-2 topics so far and you accuse me of knowing everything myself .

that whatever interpretation you put on what you observe is correct.

Once again , I never claimed to be right about everything.

The world is still a pretty awesome place... if you know where to look. But you're like a criminal who can't find the cops.

Pretty sad if you have to start looking for the "awesome places" to find any at the most , your strategy of argumentation gets more amusing by the minute.

And how can you "tell"? If your brain is just a series of random chemicals, how would you know what's right or wrong? You can't know. No one can. I refer back to my example of the German people at the time of Hitler.

And I refer back to the fact that you should repeat your history class before you accuse 80 million people of a genocide again , you should be careful about your choice of words , how would you feel if I would call you a fascist murderer and exploiter just because your US Troops murdered innocent people for oil , I guess you wouldn't find that too amusing would you , or how about that you were born and you are living on land that was stolen from people by your ancestors , so I guess we shouldn't discuss about the history of nations , simply because every nation has blood on it's hands .

[Woodsprite]

Originally Posted by fkeua vrrtep

First of all I am german myself...

Good for you. I'm also German by ancestry...

...and half middle eastern (father's side). So I guess that makes my post a double wammy for giving examples, doesn't it?

Originally Posted by fkeua vrrtep

...and I guess I have to retell the story as it was , there were around 10% of the germans who called themselves followers of the NS-Party , you try to portrait it like it was EVERYONE , that's like saying just because some islamists are bombing a building , all people of the islam must be killers too...

Actually it was more around 12%, but I wasn't talking about Nazis, I was talking about Jew-haters. German government at the time of Hitler's chancellery declared all Jews as "non-persons". That's a pretty big step from "just a few", if the government gets involved at least.

Originally Posted by fkeua vrrtep

...it's just stupid , besides jews are not a race , it's a religious group , and I hope you realized you tried to draw parallels between me and the Nazis .

If you thought I was actually trying to equate you with the Nazis, I deeply apologize, because I didn't. I didn't even know you were German, so how could I?

But I agree that Jews aren't a "race" per se (no group of people is), but what the Germans meant by "race" was "a group of people from a certain ancestry". If I was a Jew, and yet declared myself an atheist, I would still technically remain a Jew by ancestry.

Originally Posted by fkeua vrrtep

But I guess it's just like I said , the winner always writes history .

Wow... I guess that would exclude things like Vietnam, the black panthers, etc., right?

Originally Posted by fkeua vrrtep

Well , if you look back at the last 200 years that's pretty much the main thing mankind was busy with , killing ,invading ,torturing , murdering and exploiting , telling anything different would make you a coward too since it's a proven fact that we've been busy killing off each other since ages , tells alot about how mankind works doesn't it .

More like the last 6,000 years. Man's been doing the same ever since his existence came to be. I agree. But if you're implying that that's all man is truly capable of doing, you're incorrect.

Originally Posted by fkeua vrrtep

And it's not all it has become , technically it's a little different , now you can sit at home and watch the news reporter talking about how your countries troops did well in capturing oil plants and killing innocent people right after the ad for some new mainstream album .

Are you calling the U.S. an evil system of people? Because if all you look at is a little news here and there about wars going on (where people die, like in every war, including Germany for example), then you aren't really seeing what else is happening. Like I said: a criminal who can't find the cops.

Originally Posted by fkeua vrrtep

It's not about me claiming myself always right , I just see things happening , reflecting the way things look and the way they are .

And of course what I do observe is right , would suck if my eyes would start fooling me .

Like I said: a criminal who can't find the cops.

Now, I don't like elephant-hurling myself, but if you'd like to check out these links...

Bolivian president Morales launches the
European astronomers find 32 new 'exoplanets' - washingtonpost.com
Herta Müller takes Nobel prize for literature | Books | The Guardian
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Support the Katie Piper Foundation | Take Action | Sideways News
Cleaner who returns £33,000 dubbed a 'national hero' - Yahoo! News UK
Student battles leukaemia to graduate with first class degree
LEVROS WINS INTERNET EXPLORER 8 LIFE ACADEMY AWARD
Scientists advise filmmakers on perception of 3D images - University of Liverpool
Reid Stowe has broken all known sailing records spending an incredible 1,152 Days at Sea. | Hollywood Today
Survey shows Americans want more mobility options--biking, walking, and transit should be in the mix - Welcome to the FastLane: The Official Blog of the U.S. Secretary of Transportation
BBC News - Charity shop gets surprise delivery - from No 10
Researchers make blood poisoning breakthrough
Reading experts get wise on future of the Little Owl - University of Reading
Peace declared between Loew and German FA | Reuters
Latvia's Blonde Parade [PIC]
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/11/wo.../11brazil.html
BBC News - Brownsea Island in Dorset celebrates rare birth
Princeton - News - New Computer Therapy Restores Sight in Patients with Brain Injury
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0...-_n_569924.htm

...Want me to post more? I've got like 400+ more links I could post that I found in the past half hour (not an exaggeration, btw).

I know, there are bad things happening in the world. But there are good things too. Like I said: a criminal who can't find the cops.

Originally Posted by fkeua vrrtep

And in all honesty , it's hard to pick out the tiny tiny good things that happen in this world between massacres and seeing how society stupidifies it's children , or how we keep cutting down endless woods around the equator to shape them into furniture when it was ment to ensure the proper gas exchange in our atmosphere .

Well first of all, the "destroyed Amazon" stories are growing a bit old for me.

And if you seriously think there are only a few "tiny" good things happening in the world... words fail me.

Originally Posted by fkeua vrrtep

You can but that doesn't make you free , because if you dress like you want , act like you want or do whatever you like to you will become nothing but a savage to people in the western society , simply because you don't fit into the stereotype anymore .

I wonder... maybe there's this crazy concept out there (I dunno what to make of it) that says... Really, this is an insane notion. What if there was this cracked idea that said people actually wanted to be enveloped in this society because they believe it works well enough, and they liked it?

I know, weird, right?

Originally Posted by fkeua vrrtep

Family members and friends will turn against you mostly , simply because you want to be different and enjoy your freedom on how you live your life ,and of course because it's putten into a bad light to be autarc by the system everday .

My illustration was hypothetical. Why would I go out and spontaneously quit my job on the fly? Why would I do something stupid in order to feel "free"? Doesn't matter what people think, it's stupid.

Not even in a utopia of your wildest dreams, would you do certain things you wanted to do, because you know they'll lead to consequences. Not necessarily social consequences, but what about one-night stands without condoms, or murdering someone you hated at the moment, but soon regretted doing afterward? Consequence is the governing force that binds everyone of all race, color, or creed. You might have a little voice in your head that tells you to veer into the opposite lane of traffic. But then that other little voice in your head reminds you, "Ah ah ah. Driving into oncoming traffic... would be counterproductive! "

Originally Posted by fkeua vrrtep

Besides if you haven't noticed yet ,we are talking about western societies not about middle eastern ones , though I still got your point , but I don't think you got mine .

How could I? You never defined your terms in the first place; you just said "society is bad" without specifying which society. Western? Eastern? Pandoran? You didn't say.

Originally Posted by fkeua vrrtep

Why shouldn't we discuss your mindset , now you are claiming yourself to be all-wise and all-knowing , sounds a little hipocritical to me .

I didn't claim I was "all wise" or anything like that. I always choose my words very carefully (second rule in debate, the first being to define your terms). I always specified that I believe certain things are true. You just banged the gavel, "Yes. I'm right and you're wrong. End of story. If you don't agree, then you 'don't see'."

Originally Posted by fkeua vrrtep

Though I think it's stupid to not discuss someones mindset or your own with someone else , it's always good to see other perspectives and draw your conclusions out of a comparisment with yours , something else would be highly arrogant , something you called me somewhere in your text , and you've kinda been it yourself .

You drew conclusions of how my thought-process worked out of no prior debates with me. I read your posts thoroughly, as well as the comments directed at you, and then I specifically said, "I don't know you either". I always lined my conclusions with phrases like, "from what I can tell" and "I have a big feeling". I never claimed to know anything about you, because I don't. Go back and check, if you'd like.

You, however, directed straightforward, matter-of-fact statements against me like, "you like others to think for you what is right or wrong", without the slightest idea of who I am. Come on fkeua, think about it.

--Continued.

[Woodsprite]

--Continued.

Originally Posted by fkeua vrrtep

And how can you question my knowledge , we are on the internet fella,once again you are being arrogant yourself .

...I'm questioning your knowledge because you're making a solid claim that the world is made up mostly of greed, suffering, and death, and that good hardly ever triumphs in the end.

I'm questioning your knowledge because I honestly think that you believe there really isn't much good the world has to offer. You say that you base your assertions on "fact", but I just listed about 20 links up there that say otherwise, and have plenty more for you. Are the thousands upon thousands of positive events that happen in the world every year just "exceptions" to your model? The data doesn't compute. Fact is, there are many, many good things happening, and you're like the criminal who can't find the cops. God I love that line.

Originally Posted by fkeua vrrtep

Simply because they are based on facts and observations or also logic conclusions .

Well all I can say to that is, you need to get out more.

Originally Posted by fkeua vrrtep

The conclusion I drew was obvious , doesn't have anything to do with being cocky ,all wise or all knowing , it's an obvious fact that people like to be anonymous amongst the masses , they give their freedom to a few and let them decide on how to procede with humanity , and if something goes wrong , they have someone else to blame at every possible time and give away responsibility .

The conclusion you drew was based on incomplete information. In other words, you don't want to find anything good about the world. You refuse to. Not to say that there are a hell of a lot of bad things going on. You're right about that; I agree.

Originally Posted by fkeua vrrtep

I guess I am pretty to that I can rely on historical proven facts and on my sane mind and senses .

Likewise...

Originally Posted by fkeua vrrtep

Your examples don't make any sense , there is nothing such as an error in nature , everything nature does is experimenting , and we both belong to the same experiment .

How do you know there's no such thing? For all you know, there could be aliens stationed on the dark side of Mars that interfered with our development all through time.

Originally Posted by fkeua vrrtep

Besides I don't trust my thoughts , I trust facts and observations which can't be faked unless I'm on LSD , shrooms or else what.

Well, I also trust facts and observation. *looks up*

Originally Posted by fkeua vrrtep

And even if that happened what you described with Eltu's brain , that still doesn't legitimate himself to be the human-supercomputer , all-knowing and all-wise , you kind of refuted yourself there.

I never said he was "all-knowing and all-wise", I said for all we know, "his mindset is theoretically the 'correct' one, with less error". Look at my post before you write.

Originally Posted by fkeua vrrtep

You are right , in a way it's senseless what we are doing , as far as I know we are the first species to face the surface of this planet that has been trying to exploit and kill off each other since man crawled out of the slime , and nature kind of really screwed something up with us .

So says the "mainstream" and "society".

Originally Posted by fkeua vrrtep

In my oppinion there is no good nor evil , it's only choices that makes us what we are , there's things that are viewed evil in one and good in a different culture , thus there is no good or evil , only decisions and how we look at them , there is no consequences , only choices .

... Huh?

Please correct me if I'm wrong. This entire time, you've been constantly asserting again and again how there's so much bad going on, and that you could see it happening; that it was "obvious".

...Now you're completely flipping your opinion, it seems, saying that "there is no good or evil , only decisions and how we look at them". That's precisely what I said before, but you responded with things like,

Originally Posted by fkeua vrrtep

I refer to the reality of how our society works and always has worked , that doesn't have anything to do with "I think it might be like" , it's something you can see everyday , you don't need to be a genius to see that.

...

I just see what happens in front of me and on this planet , and I can tell that I don't like it , and it's not right , it's simply wrong .

...But according to what you just said, the lack of there being any true "good" or "evil" would defeat the purpose of an action or event being "right" or "wrong".

This is all very confusing to me, and you just contradicted everything you've been trying to adduce since we started debating...

Originally Posted by fkeua vrrtep

Once again , my mindset and experiences base on true facts , I don't just come up with stuff just like that , and if I would think of myself as all-knowing and all-wise I wouldn't be here to discuss things .

Then how do explain all the links I've provided, with hundreds of more examples yet to give?

Originally Posted by fkeua vrrtep

Now you are being a hipocrit again , you are attacking me personally , though you told me to "STOP" before when I questioned or wanted to discuss your mindset , and unlike you said my life has been a normal one until now , I think of my mindset as a mirror of the world I live in and it reflects nothing but things that really happened , and no that's not ment arrogant or however you wan't to call it .

Woah woah, hold on there, fella. I never attacked you personally. Look again; I worded myself to the benefit of the doubt that I might be wrong. Please don't take what I said as any intended insult; I was merely guessing. I didn't assert that you were anything.

I'm glad your life is normal! That's a good thing, and I'm happy for you. I was just wondering why you're such a pessimist about the world. But you didn't use any form of mercy to address what my ideas were, you just started making blatant claims as if you've known me all my life.

Originally Posted by fkeua vrrtep

And so what , is it wrong to think negatively if something is negative ? Your point doesn't make any sense to me .

That's a loaded question. You're assuming the world is an overall negative place when you don't have all the facts. It's like asking "Have you stopped beating your wife, yet?" assuming of course that the subject has been beating his wife regardless.

Originally Posted by fkeua vrrtep

Of course alot of people are leading happy lifes , because they love the artificial world they've been thrown into and given all those illusions of wealth or freedom which they will never possess as long as they are living in their bubbles .

So in other words, everyone is wrong, and you're right?

Originally Posted by fkeua vrrtep

Well mate , if you believe that you are not living in a controlled state or system you don't know crap either , because it's been that way forever , it's just less obvious or you just don't like to think about it , I don't know .

Assuming opinion to be fact. Another fallacy.

Originally Posted by fkeua vrrtep

Now you claim that you just know everything by yourself , we've only been talking about 1-2 topics so far and you accuse me of knowing everything myself .

No, I haven't. I've been careful with my words.

Originally Posted by fkeua vrrtep

Once again , I never claimed to be right about everything.

I wasn't referring to "everything", I was referring to your beliefs about "society".

Originally Posted by fkeua vrrtep

Pretty sad if you have to start looking for the "awesome places" to find any at the most , your strategy of argumentation gets more amusing by the minute.

Awesome places in the world are easy to list off. Eiffel Tower, Grand Canyon, Mt. Everest, Great Pyramid at Giza, etc.

Awesome events or things about the world was what I meant by the world being an "awesome place".

Originally Posted by fkeua vrrtep

And I refer back to the fact that you should repeat your history class before you accuse 80 million people of a genocide again , you should be careful about your choice of words...

...I was. I never accused the German people as a whole for committing genocide. I said that a lot of them, at that time, were prejudiced against Jews; that's all. Same existed with whites and blacks in the U.S., only our government never declared them as being "non-persons", thank God, considering some of the a**hole racist presidents we've had like Roosevelt and Wilson.

Originally Posted by fkeua vrrtep

...how would you feel if I would call you a fascist murderer and exploiter just because your US Troops murdered innocent people for oil , I guess you wouldn't find that too amusing would you...

Well, I'd ask where you got the information or proof that U.S. soldiers have been purposely murdering innocent people for oil in Iraq and/or Afghanistan.

...The example you gave was kind of weird; we aren't murdering people. You should've brought up a war like Vietnam, where we did murder people.

Originally Posted by fkeua vrrtep

...or how about that you were born and you are living on land that was stolen from people by your ancestors , so I guess we shouldn't discuss about the history of nations , simply because every nation has blood on it's hands .

True.

I honestly didn't know you were German. My example was just a random example; I didn't mean anything personal against you.

[fkeua vrrtep]

[QUOTE=Woodsprite;77516]Well this is certainly one hell of a long post...

Are you calling the U.S. an evil system of people? Because if all you look at is a little news here and there about wars going on (where people die, like in every war, including Germany for example), then you aren't really seeing what else is happening. Like I said: a criminal who can't find the cops.

No , of course I am aware that you can't declare a whole group of people as evil , it's just that the people who live in the U.S. let their state do whatever it likes to , for example cut off supports for the education system , let corrupt presidents get elected , even after they got elected and totally do the opposite of what they promised they just sit there and don't do anything , just like the germans 70 years ago , clearly shows that nothing has chaged , the sheeps are still to frightened to say something , the U.S.'s government is f'ing around with it's people for decades already , presents you a "demoncratic" system with 2(!) parties to choose from , which basically are just doing the same anyways .

It's like I said , people rather remain silent , and live off of their "normal" or "good" living standards but give away their rights and moral if they don't do anything about it but moaning around .

I know, there are bad things happening in the world. But there are good things too. Like I said: a criminal who can't find the cops.

Of course there's some few good things happening in the world , but try to see it in contrast to the bad things that have happened and still are present to this day and are going on , I guess it can't be overlooked that we are far away from being a "samaritan" species.

Not even in a utopia of your wildest dreams, would you do certain things you wanted to do, because you know they'll lead to consequences. Not necessarily social consequences, but what about one-night stands without condoms, or murdering someone you hated at the moment, but soon regretted doing afterward? Consequence is the governing force that binds everyone of all race, color, or creed. You might have a little voice in your head that tells you to veer into the opposite lane of traffic. But then that other little voice in your head reminds you, "Ah ah ah. Driving into oncoming traffic... would be counterproductive!

I'd never kill someone simply because I disliked him or her , but it's a difference if someone hurts my people .

And even though we have the current society as our guardian as you want to portrait it , the US for example still has a killing rate of 10000 deaths each year through arms , doesn't seem like your "Ah ah ah" system seems to work too well , not to mention the endless numbers of deaths caused through drunk driving .

I didn't claim I was "all wise" or anything like that. I always choose my words very carefully (second rule in debate, the first being to define your terms). I always specified that I believe certain things are true. You just banged the gavel, "Yes. I'm right and you're wrong. End of story. If you don't agree, then you 'don't see'."

Again , I never said I'm right and you are wrong , if I would think of myself as right I wouldn't be here to DISCUSS .
[QUOTE]
You, however, directed straightforward, matter-of-fact statements against me like, "you like others to think for you what is right or wrong", without the slightest idea of who I am. Come on fkeua, think about it.[/QUOTE

I came to that conclusion because you presented me the system in which you live as "no so bad afterall" etc.

...Now you're completely flipping your opinion, it seems, saying that "there is no good or evil , only decisions and how we look at them". That's precisely what I said before, but you responded with things like,

I didn't flip my oppinion , my oppinion is still the same , I just tried to show up that there's different views on "good" or "evil" in a way because different cultures have different views on those terms or don't even consider them as real ,for example the aztecs liked to tear out hearts occationally which was a "good" thing because it happened to please their gods , but we are living in western societies and the things that we do define usand I don't like where it is going .

So in other words, everyone is wrong, and you're right?

All I can say is that alot of people are living their lifes unaware , almost wasting it , and giving it away to false ideals .

...I was. I never accused the German people as a whole for committing genocide.

With the words "the german people" you did , you referred to the whole of the german population to be nazi-followers , and as you might know their program included genocide .

Well, I'd ask where you got the information or proof that U.S. soldiers have been purposely murdering innocent people for oil in Iraq and/or Afghanistan.

Well it's happening since 2003 , maybe you didn't read any newspapers in the meantime .

There are several shootings noted in which civilians were killed by US troops or Blackwater security troops , by the way the majority of people who died since the invasion in Iraq were civilians , and let's facte it , the only reason the US invaded Iraq was to secure the oil , not because they thought "woops another dictator we have to stop him" , how come the US never decides to go over to africa , how was it with Rwanda , several 100000 people were killed , nobody intervened , and there's a number of several more states in which genocide keeps happening but the NATO and the US troops still don't intervene , due to lack of oil I guess.

...The example you gave was kind of weird; we aren't murdering people. You should've brought up a war like Vietnam, where we did murder people.

You are right , Iraq is more of a mix of murdering and exploiting the countries natural resources .

[Sonoran Na'vi]

Originally Posted by fkeua vrrtep

I'm certainly aware that the roads I'm driving on are at least partly made with the money of the people who payed taxes for it , but the money that is taken as taxes is only spent to make it become useful for the people who payed them , the money is widely spent on other things such as the military etc. , things I don't want my money to go for , infact I think it's quite obvious that the taxes are not used to improve the standard of living of the people who payed them , it is mostly put into the economy , military and used to stabilize the power of the country and it's influence in the world if we refer to western states .

If you are living in America, most of your taxes at the federal level will go toward the military, social security, health services, and the treasury department (payments on interest). The stimulus package is not a regular expenditure for the government, but that is the only large expenditure that I can think of that was meant to directly effect the economy. A government generally influences an economy through fiscal policies: government spending and tax rates.