Pandora On Earth

[Empty Glass]

Originally Posted by auroraglacialis

Tree dwelling indigenous people:

The Koroway in pictures: tribe living in remote Indonesian forest officially recognised as 'tree-dwellers' - Telegraph

Wow! There's some pretty amazing pictures there! Though I noticed one of the captions says "We can ensure they get access to education and health care just like any other Indonesian." Sounds familiar... Don't know if that's necessarily what they want.

Originally Posted by Patrice Maire

::IGH:::

I love the sierras!! I wanted to go there with my son this summer but it's not going to happen.

I was in a fast food place where they had flat screens in several places. They were playing segments from a few videos about Earth. If you ever feel like this is an ugly planet, just go find one of those videos. I stood there mesmerized by the animals, views and gorgeous scenery that is still on our little blue ball.
I don't see how anyone could think of being depressed about not going to a fictional place when we have that kind of beauty right here.

Aww, that's too bad that you won't get to go there! The Sierras truly are an outstanding example of the natural beauty that still exists on this planet, lest anyone think there is none. Though I guess we should count ourselves fortunate that they are within close and easy access to us. Someday, with careful planning, I hope to hike the entire John Muir Trail.

[auroraglacialis]

Originally Posted by Empty Glass

"We can ensure they get access to education and health care just like any other Indonesian." Sounds familiar... Don't know if that's necessarily what they want.

They seem not to have wanted it for a long time. But the "we bring you civilization" is a kind of missionary approach that sadly often works.
"Here, you can get health care and sunglasses, isn't that good. Oh, did I forget to mention that the pharmaceuticals will poison your soil and rivers and that to get the plastics for it all we need to drill a hole into the ground in the forest to pump up oil? Oh and to build the drilling rig of course we need metal from your mountains and energy for the smelter by building a dam in the river. But you can move a bit, right? We could also use the trees of the forest to make renewable CO2 neutral energy for the production of the metal and plastics - it is very ecological. We can replace the forest by fast growing trees that produce more energy, too. Ok, you cannot build a house in that, but living in trees is quite troublesome anyways, right? ..." and so it goes south

And yes - this place, this planet is beautiful. It is very much so. This is why I get depressed - not because I really want to be on Pandora compared to Earth but because the Pandora we have on Earth is in grave danger.

Yesterday I saw "Gasland". It is horrible - as horrible as the ongoing devastation of the Canadian forests by tar sands mining or the gusher in the gulf or the mountain top removal in eastern US or the brown coal digging in Germany. The movie is about the very unclean side effects of production of "clean natural gas".

[tm20]

Originally Posted by auroraglacialis

They seem not to have wanted it for a long time. But the "we bring you civilization" is a kind of missionary approach that sadly often works.
"Here, you can get health care and sunglasses, isn't that good. Oh, did I forget to mention that the pharmaceuticals will poison your soil and rivers and that to get the plastics for it all we need to drill a hole into the ground in the forest to pump up oil? Oh and to build the drilling rig of course we need metal from your mountains and energy for the smelter by building a dam in the river. But you can move a bit, right? We could also use the trees of the forest to make renewable CO2 neutral energy for the production of the metal and plastics - it is very ecological. We can replace the forest by fast growing trees that produce more energy, too. Ok, you cannot build a house in that, but living in trees is quite troublesome anyways, right? ..." and so it goes south

And yes - this place, this planet is beautiful. It is very much so. This is why I get depressed - not because I really want to be on Pandora compared to Earth but because the Pandora we have on Earth is in grave danger.

Yesterday I saw "Gasland". It is horrible - as horrible as the ongoing devastation of the Canadian forests by tar sands mining or the gusher in the gulf or the mountain top removal in eastern US or the brown coal digging in Germany. The movie is about the very unclean side effects of production of "clean natural gas".

i didn't read your whole post but i read a bit about what you're saying regarding trying to civilise these tribal people. my university has organized a trip at the end of the year (and seems like they do this every year) to go to the amazon and "help" the children of a particular tribe. they are going to build them a school and teach them english....... is this what the people really want? i don't think so, but i could be wrong....

[auroraglacialis]

Will you participate? If so, think well about what you teach them. Tech them what the costs are, tech them what each of the things civilization brings with it costs in the global perspective.
Teching them english - generally that is not too bad of an idea, but make sure if they understand the language, that they do not get a stupid single sided propaganda through that language by some cheesy TV or media that propagate the western lifestyle as it is called - education is good, but education has to be balanced, not biased and sadly it usually is the latter when it comes to schools, especially in "developing" countries.

[Empty Glass]

I wish that the 'civilized' world could just leave Earth's other peoples alone. Whatever happened to the concept of self-determination...

I guess if 'we' left people like the Koroway alone there wouldn't be any need for self-determination in the first place.

EDIT: Thinking about what I just said, it seems like it is impossible to simply leave such people alone, or to prevent all traces of 'civilization' from being exposed to them.

[tm20]

Originally Posted by auroraglacialis

Will you participate? If so, think well about what you teach them. Tech them what the costs are, tech them what each of the things civilization brings with it costs in the global perspective.
Teching them english - generally that is not too bad of an idea, but make sure if they understand the language, that they do not get a stupid single sided propaganda through that language by some cheesy TV or media that propagate the western lifestyle as it is called - education is good, but education has to be balanced, not biased and sadly it usually is the latter when it comes to schools, especially in "developing" countries.

no i'm not going. if i was to ever go to south america it would be either on my own or with a friend.

[auroraglacialis]

Originally Posted by Empty Glass

I wish that the 'civilized' world could just leave Earth's other peoples alone. Whatever happened to the concept of self-determination...
EDIT: Thinking about what I just said, it seems like it is impossible to simply leave such people alone, or to prevent all traces of 'civilization' from being exposed to them.

Yes, that is the problem about the concept of self determination. It also requires the people who influence others to restrict themselves - so that means then of course that they are not able to do as they wish. But honestly, I think a tribe living peacefully within its environment has more right to insist on that stying as it is, as some people on the other side of the world have the right to exploit all the resources of all the planet and pollute it during that way.
I would be happy, if civilization would just refrain from enforcing or cheating its lifestyle on other people and from destroying these other peoples life base (clean land, water and air). If a civilization manages that, I may accept it, but I see no way this civilization is heading anywhere close to it, as its very foundation is growth and exploitation - that cannot ever be sustainable and it cannot ever work in a way that leaves others alone.

To spin off a bit into fantasy, if a civilization happens to be in some country of this planet, not expanding over that, not importing resources they cannot later export again, using its own land base to support what they are doing, not dumping waste into the oceans or air, not conquering lands or exploit resources in other countries, not try to enforce or convince others to adopt their lifestyle - I think it would be okay. But that is not this civilization and it never will be. I am not even sure or rather doubt it even that any technological industrial civilization could manage to fulfill that standards as by its very nature it needs to extract rare resources and influence the environment and people outside its country.

[Empty Glass]

Originally Posted by auroraglacialis

To spin off a bit into fantasy, if a civilization happens to be in some country of this planet, not expanding over that, not importing resources they cannot later export again, using its own land base to support what they are doing, not dumping waste into the oceans or air, not conquering lands or exploit resources in other countries, not try to enforce or convince others to adopt their lifestyle - I think it would be okay. But that is not this civilization and it never will be. I am not even sure or rather doubt it even that any technological industrial civilization could manage to fulfill that standards as by its very nature it needs to extract rare resources and influence the environment and people outside its country.

That fantasy would indeed be ideal. But like you said, not every country has access to the resources it wants. And that just invites a whole slew of other issues.

I am not the best at figuring out everything that the world needs, but if civilization wants to get anywhere close to what you described I think there needs to be a massive shift in consciousness, the likes of which probably haven't been seen in a long time, and on nothing less than a global scale. The way a civilization operates needs to be redesigned. I would like to remain hopeful and say that countries will turn themselves around before it's too late (whenever that will be), but I dunno... I suppose people can start by not taking the things that (supposedly) make their life easier for granted. I could sure learn to do that more myself.

[auroraglacialis]

Originally Posted by Empty Glass

.. to get anywhere close to what you described I think there needs to be a massive shift in consciousness, the likes of which probably haven't been seen in a long time, and on nothing less than a global scale. The way a civilization operates needs to be redesigned.

Yes indeed. And I see it not as an option but as a requirement if anything is going to be there for the future generations. The kind of civilization we live in now is not working. It just is not. So it has to be done with and replaced by something new - a new civilization operating differently maybe if that is possible. I guess it depends on the way one defines civilization. Most definitions inevitably lead to the problems at hand though (regarding nature as a resource, relying on non renewable resources, stretching renewable resources to a point they push away other lifeforms).

I would like to remain hopeful and say that countries will turn themselves around before it's too late (whenever that will be), but I dunno... I suppose people can start by not taking the things that (supposedly) make their life easier for granted. I could sure learn to do that more myself.

I dont think "countries" or "the economy" will do so. Not voluntarily. Maybe if their existence is threatened by their actions, but even then they will only change so much as to avoid that. People can learn, people can do stuff - People can act and decide on their own lifes and maybe even convince others to do the same, to show them what is happening here, that this is not right. No one can tell anyone what to do and what is right or "the way" to go, this is probably why it is impossible for large groups of people (nations, countries, corporations, cities) to act at all on this - they need "the one way to do it" that does not exist - at least not as a plan or as a constructive progressive way to go. We know how it does not work, but everyone himself needs to find and realize what the conclusions are. There should be one common ground and that is that the system as it is going on now is not working - not for nature and also not for the people.
Some say there has to be a working alternative present before abandoning the old system, but that is not how things work, especially not in a time of crisis. See - people are most likely to change at a point when whatever they do is not working anymore. But at that point one does not always know what a working alternative is. It has to be found at that moment. And this moment for this culture is within these decades - The crisis is here. 90% of big fish are gone, some hundreds (or is it up to thousands?) species a day die out, the air is polluted, the water has poisons in it, WTF - we dont have the luxury to wait any longer for "proven working solutions".
And people know this! What they need to do is to realize it and to feel free to act on it. Go out and ask anyone if humanity or this culture will survive if it goes on as it does. I bet you will get "no" as a dominant answer. Still almost every single one of these people will not accept the consequences to its full extent. They will indulge in hope for technology, science and politics to bring on some small changes that make a difference. Ask about big changes like what you mentioned before and if this culture and its people will go for such a change voluntarily and again you will hear them say "no".
What the consequences are, for the future, for what will or might happen and for people who realize what is going on rather than merely knowing it - what these consequences are is something to ponder...

[weka]

A meadow in Yosemite. My friend took this picture. I'm so jealous...

[Oliver]

Is that picture true, and not fake :O?

Originally Posted by Taronyu Eywa

Well, sadly I live no where near this beautiful place. I don't even know where it is but its astonishing beauty just reminds me of Pandora.

[Empty Glass]

Originally Posted by Oliver

Is that picture true, and not fake :O?

I'm pretty sure that picture is not fake, I feel like I've seen it elsewhere and read where it was taken. Maybe I saw it on Avatar-Forums. But yeah, I think it is real.

[Oliver]

That picture is very very beautiful! :i

Originally Posted by Empty Glass

I'm pretty sure that picture is not fake, I feel like I've seen it elsewhere and read where it was taken. Maybe I saw it on Avatar-Forums. But yeah, I think it is real.

[Oliver]

i really want to get there :i

[Empty Glass]

Anyone who knows where that picture was taken, feel free to say it.